#134: A theology of laughter and co-creation (with Dave Connis)

Children’s and Young Adult author Dave Connis comes to The Puddcast to teach us the importance of laughter (and more). Dave’s hilarious and meaningful storybooks, The Inventions of God (and Eva), and The Stories of God (and Kiki) both captured our affection in a big way. We reflected on being intentional about the stories we tell our children and what we pass on to them; seeing ourselves within the continuum of generations before and after ourselves; how God invites all the parts of ourselves to co-creation; and more. If you’re a human being make sure to have a listen, and if you have kids, grandkids or nieces & nephews, make sure to grab his books from the links below.

Order The Inventions of God (and Eva), by Dave Connis (illustrations by Amy Domingo)
Order The Stories of God (and Kiki), by Dave Connis (illustrations by Amy Domingo)
Learn more about Dave’s work at daveconnis.com
Follow Dave on Instagram and Twitter.

Grab my latest book, Mornings with God: Daily Bible Devotional for Men (good for women too)
Check out my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.

Support the show and my other work, at jonathanpuddle.com/support
Find every book or resource I’ve talked about recently on my Amazon storefront, in Canada, the United States or the United Kingdom.

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Transcription

Dave Connis  00:00

Joy is an emotional response to something that is abundant. And I think laughter is kind of the symptom of like that emotional abundance, right? So I just feel like it's such a huge part of being human. And you can't get a bunch of people together without there being at least one clown in the group. And we had 12 disciples, right? Odds are that there was at least two. I mean, the fact that Jesus was giving nicknames like "Sons of thunder", and calling Peter "the rock", like I just feel like there's, there's more there that we can't read between the lines of because it's so like... the tone of the Bible, it's not flat, but it's the purpose isn't to perpetuate a specific tone. So I'd imagine in between all of these cultural lines, there's these jokes that were just like not seeing that we're not getting. All that to say: Jesus was a human, and being a part of human is laughter and, and making jokes. So there it is.

Jonathan Puddle  01:06

Hey, friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle, and my co-host Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon. This is episode 134. Happy New Year to those just rolling into 2023. Our guest on the show today is Dave Connis, who is an author and musician, a former librarian, and an all around funny guy. We discussed mostly his two latest illustrated children's books, "The inventions of God (and Eva)", and "The stories of God (and Kiki)". But we touched on a lot of different things in this, Dave brings up some of his young adult fiction and various other things. Really, we kind of settled on the importance of laughter, of joy, of God inviting us to co-create with him, that we get to see everything that we do as good and beautiful and fun and artistry and part of the spreading of God's love and redemption, in all things. We talked about raising our kids and being intentional about what we pass on to the next generation. All kinds of fun stuff. Dave is a husband and father as well, has his own young kids, and we had a lot of fun here. It's worth pointing out that Tryphena had to call in via the phone and was stuck in her car with her five year old. So... who makes an appearance or three, in this interview. So that's, that's why some things are the way they are. Anyway, I'm glad that you're here. I'm glad to be back in 2023 with you all, and let's get into this show.

Jonathan Puddle  02:53

This is finally happening. We've tried so hard to make this happen.

Dave Connis  02:58

So long.

Jonathan Puddle  02:58

And so long, and but I'm glad because it's already been so much fun.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:04

It has been.

Dave Connis  03:05

It has!

Jonathan Puddle  03:06

It's like you understand the craziness of children, of life...

Dave Connis  03:13

Mmhm. It's kind of like that, isn't it?

Jonathan Puddle  03:14

And, you know, trying to be creative and get in a flow and also pay the bills and all of these things often seem mutually exclusive. So, whoop whoop whoop.

Dave Connis  03:26

You have to pick two. I think

Jonathan Puddle  03:28

That's right, pick, pick two.

Dave Connis  03:31

I think typically it's being in a flow that is sacrificed, because that's the optional one.

Jonathan Puddle  03:37

That's right. That's right. So we over here have have really enjoyed your two kids books. "The Inventions of God (and Ava) or Eva... I don't know how you pronounce that.

Dave Connis  03:48

Eva.

Jonathan Puddle  03:49

Eva. Very good. And "The stories of God (and Kiki). We both are megafans.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:53

Love it.

Dave Connis  03:53

Good. It's you guys in my mom. You're both megafans so, I'm just kidding. I'm sure there's at least one other person.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  04:01

I'm sure you have quite the following. I have been so excited for this because I think it takes a great deal of wisdom to write a children's book because I we've talked about this but taking such a big concept and distilling it into a simple into simple language is such a fundamental like a phenomenal skill. And so I'm just so excited for this conversation. I'm such a kids book nerd so this is yeah.

Dave Connis  04:24

Yeah, it's it is not an easy... So, kind of like why I started specifically with the the Jesus-y picture books was because I was like, why don't why can't I find any like picture books about Jesus that make me laugh at the same time? Like there's this whole aspect of like Jesus and like his humanity that I just don't feel like I get when I read these sorts of books. When it's both needed, right like you need both sides but I just wasn't getting the the humor side. So I was like, well, I'll do it. I'm an author. I write words. Well. It's fine. So I, I gave it, I gave it a shot. And immediately I was like, "Oh, this is this is why. Because it's really hard." It's really hard to do this. And it was actually a lot harder for Kiki, writing Kiki than it was for Eva. Eva was a little bit more accessible in terms of like, biblical concepts. Kiki was like, really, I mean, it was going through, you know, in the beginning was the Word and like, well, what is the word and like going through, there's new Jerusalem stuff in there. So there's like all of this kind of like theology in that one. So all of that's happening. And it's like, well, at the same time, you need to be funny, because that's like the series, you're being funny now. And you need to not like create your own religion while you're doing all of it at the same. So it's been, it's been a really big journey to figure out how to do it. And I still don't know if I know how. I feel at this point like I've just gotten lucky twice. So...

Jonathan Puddle  06:05

Sure.

Dave Connis  06:06

We'll see how I feel on the third one. But yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  06:08

Why... What What about your own journey, or whatever. Insert, well formulated question here. Why is laughter important? I love laughter but but I've never double clicked on it in that way.

Dave Connis  06:23

Sure. I like that. I think it's just like such a huge part of the human experience. Like, so, have you? Is it Makoto Fujimura who wrote art and faith?

Jonathan Puddle  06:35

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  06:35

Yeah.

Dave Connis  06:36

He has this big section in there about that the Jesus wept, and it's gorgeous. And I'm not even going to try to like, paraphrase it. But one of the things that stuck out to me is he talked about Jesus wept, weeping being kind of like, an emotion out of abundance, like it's a response to emotion. And it's an abundant response. And one of the things that I got thinking about was, like, I kind of feel on the opposite side, that joy is an emotional response to something that is an abundant, like, you respond to whatever that might be in with joy. And, and I think laughter is kind of the symptom of like that emotional abundance, right? So I just feel like it's such a huge part of being human. And maybe for me, just like, avoiding conflict. Or like, like dealing with things, you know. My childhood growing up, I had my brother had Down Syndrome, my mom has rheumatoid arthritis. There's just a lot of like, sickness, and sadness in that. So really the way that I think, likely most of my family dealt with it was through humor. And then there's more to it than that. But there's also like, I could talk about joy there too. But I think it's just such a fundamental part of who we are. And, like, you can't get a bunch of people together without there being at least one clown in the group. And we had 12 disciples, right. So like, at least odds are that there was at least two.

Dave Connis  08:03

One person who was genuinely funny. And one person who was trying so hard.

Dave Connis  08:16

Yes, yes. And even...

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  08:19

My money's on Peter.

Dave Connis  08:20

...some of the, like, quirky things that kind of like, I mean, the fact that Jesus was giving nicknames, like "sons of thunder", and calling Peter "the rock", like, I just feel like there's, there's more there that we can't read between the lines of because it's so like, the tone of the Bible is, is, I don't want to say it's, it's not flat, but it's kind of like, the purpose isn't to perpetuate a specific tone, maybe is a good way to say it, so you can't read that tone. So I'd imagine in between all of these cultural lines, there's these jokes, that we're just like, not seeing that we're not getting, and I think there's examples of that. But so anyway, all that to say, I just think like, Jesus was a human and being a part of human is laughter and, and making jokes. So there it is.

Jonathan Puddle  09:06

That's honestly so enriching for me. I'm probably gonna have to go back through Scripture specifically for that with that in mind, like where is God laughing? Or where are people laughing? And certainly, as I've come to read scripture, with you know, less of a fundamental lens and I can you do start to see... This is, okay, that was hyperbole. That was poetry over there. That was, you know, and and yeah, if we can if we can, I like that idea of, you know, if we think of weeping as an a, an emotion that's way down way down the intensity scale, right? That's that's an overabundance. Mirth, joy, hilarity. Yeah. I actually I think The Chosen TV series has been helpful for me a little bit in that way. Seeing these guys rib each other and just like have fun and laugh.

Dave Connis  10:04

Yup.

Jonathan Puddle  10:04

And I think that hasn't really been... that hasn't been in my imagination. But how important is that? Yeah.

Dave Connis  10:12

And it takes a little bit of imagination, too. Right? Like it, it does take a little bit of imagination to kind of get to that point, because you're not necessarily like there's no "Jesus laughed" like...

Jonathan Puddle  10:23

single verse

Dave Connis  10:25

in the Bible. And I think it would likely be a little bit more helpful if there was but there's not.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  10:31

I think that even the idea though that, even when we talk about the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, we put such little emphasis on the joy, right? Or it's like, Oh, you must have you must be feeling a holy joy versus there should be laughter and delight in our day to day if we're doing it with God. And I think even when you speak about what I loved like, we've been taught to not take creative liberty liberties in so many ways, right? We've been turned off our imagination when reading scripture, and when engaging with Jesus. And so I was, there was something powerful in you even allowing Kiki to use her imagination with God. It's like Kiki creates, and so does God. There's this, there's like, there were the theme of co-creation that kept coming up. And where you get to create that delight and create that joy in our day to day. So I guess what I'm asking then is, so how does that play out and how and how does that theme of co-creation play out for you, in how we raise our kids or pass theology down from generation to generation?

Dave Connis  11:32

So funny that you asked this, because I've been thinking a lot about it lately. So I'm working on a young adult novel right now that is basically about inheritance. And it's about this boy whose father dies of a heart attack and then he inherits a magical house. And then he has to he's like the caretaker of this house. But it's been in the family for ages, doing like, and nobody really know how it knows how it works. So and it's been getting worse and worse and worse as time goes on. So he is like, there's a bunch of different inheritances going on, right? There's like the inheritance of his father, and what he doesn't know about his dad and that relationship. And then there's the inheritance of this house and his story, in this greater picture of all of these stories that have come before Him. And then there's like this idea of inheritance of because I think when we think of inheritance, we think of money. And we think of finances, and we think of material things. So but like what about the like, the things about how this family has operated for generations is now inherited by this this kid? And he has to figure out like, well, what are those things and what's good about them? And what's not good about them? And what's going on in play right now? How is my dad then affected by that? Like, what were the things.. so, so there's that whole level, but all of that to say, I've been researching my own ancestry because of this, because I just wanted to get like a good picture of what it looks like to go back in generations to see, like the stories of these people and while I haven't really gotten a good clear picture of like, my my past history, what I have been really struck with is this idea that even two generations ago, I wasn't a idea for anyone. Right? Like, David Connis, as I know him, was just like, not not in existence, for anybody. And now I am. And now I am taking up a physical space and in a physical realm of people with influence on a certain amount of people that are in that realm. I'm writing books, maybe or maybe that not influence that influences people. It's hard to say. But like, you're doing, I'm doing all of these things in a physical world, right? So like two, two generations ago, that wasn't a consideration. Now it is. So I think when I think about my place in that story, my place in the story of my entire family, and I think about two generations from now, when I'm dead and gone, what's going to be happening through my kids, them having kids, maybe them their kids having kids, maybe them not having kids, like any of that I just don't have a concept for it. But but God does, right. So like, and God is putting that into place now. And with the things that I am doing, and the ways that I am taking my the part, this part of my story seriously. And that's just like, it's both really terrifying, and it's also really encouraging to know that like, I just need to do good and do my best here, with what I've been given, knowing that God's gonna go into the future and take that ahead of me and do stuff with it for His kingdom in ways that I can't, that I'm never going to be able to understand. Anyway, that's that's what I've been thinking about lately.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  15:02

I love... like I feel like there's a whole, like philosophical like theory coming out of there. But I love, like, just, it almost simplifies things, right? Versus like, whatever we have to do has to then affect generations to come. It's like, Nope, I just live my life in a present way now, you actually are impacting generations to come. And it allows you to be present in the space that you're in. I was reading something today. And it was the idea that in our body right now we hold our ancestors of the past, our family of the present, and then our generations of the future. So when just honoring your body now you're actually healing past present and future generation. And it was so like, I don't know, I've been having to sit with this today. But I love it. Because even when you're talking about to, like 2000 years ago, or however many generations two generations ago, there wasn't a thought of you. And two generations later, there may not be. But still there are themes that are through-lines that affect all those generations, right?

Dave Connis  15:58

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  15:59

It's humbling, but it yet also really powerful.

Dave Connis  16:02

Yeah, and it's, like, it's really interesting for me to look back into look at all of these names that are directly connected to me, that I know nothing about, like, I have no idea what they did. I don't even know, like their their jobs. So like thinking about, like, what was passed on? And also thinking about this idea, like what you were saying, you know, rheumatoid arthritis runs in my family. So like, that has been a family disease that's been passed on. And I think about that for my kids, specifically for my daughter, because for for its is in the females in this side of my family, females. So like, that's been a prayer for me for her that I've had, like, it's going to stop here, like this is this is where and this generational story, this stuff, this is done. Like, so to think about those sorts of things. And, and I think it makes it feel more important to for me, like I've always people are always like, your job is just like, where are you are, and it's important. And like, I think for a long, it's really easy to see that like, yeah, yeah, of course, it's important. I get it, like it's fine. But I think when I think about like, the fact that this goes so far beyond my my own life, it really does make it feel more important. Like, it kinda ups the stakes for me in a helpful way. I would imagine for some people, it might make it feel more, like now I just have more anxiety. Thanks. But like, I think for me it grounds me in the here and now somehow to say like, there's a lot at stake here in the future, because my extended family.... so my wife's family, there are 17 cousins. Yes, it's an insane amount of cousins. But like thinking about that, like what if all four of my kids have five kids, that's 15 people.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  17:56

That's wild.

Dave Connis  17:57

15 Connises going world based off of the things that I have passed on. So yeah, that doesn't necessarily like talk about the, you know, what could be passed on what should be. But I think for me, it's been really humbling and really grounding to think about my, my part of the story is just being a chapter, and not being the book. Because I think we all want to be main characters. We don't get to be. We're part of a story. And I think that's good. I think that's likely a good thing.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  18:28

That line right there.

Jonathan Puddle  18:30

I've been chewing over that ever since Interstellar came out. And this, this thing where where Matthew McConaughey's characters talking to his daughter, Murph. And it's like, you know, we we're the parent, when you when you have kids, parents kind of their life ceases, and you become the ghosts of your children's memories. And that obviously plays out in really metaphysical ways within the film.

Dave Connis  18:54

Yup.

Jonathan Puddle  18:54

But like, I've just been chewing over that for like, what, how 13, 10, 13 years since I had kids, this idea that like, in a sense, I still feel like I'm in the center of the frame, right? I'm the work of art with the frame around me. But as soon as I orient around my children, they don't see me as the center of the show. Not not at all, and they should not. That would be unhealthy. I'm just the framework that their story gets to play out against and upon. And, you know, obviously, there's going to be multiple generations alive at the same time. And there'll be times where they're not children, and our kids are grown up and are pursuing adult interests and things while we're hopefully still also of sound mind and body and able to do similar things but reorienting kind of our entire purpose to be soil that our children get to grow inside of and hopefully find rich nutrients within, is something that it's kind of chewed up my mind for quite a while, right? Like it's...

Dave Connis  20:03

Thanks, Christopher Nolan.

Jonathan Puddle  20:05

Thank you, Christopher Nolan.

Dave Connis  20:06

Yeah, thanks for that.

Jonathan Puddle  20:08

Incidentally, he is become my eldest son who's 13, his favorite filmmaker, so...

Dave Connis  20:13

Understandable. Although I feel like we lost he lost it, he needed an editor for whatever that most recent one was that came out during the pandemic. Shoot, what was it the one where they're going in reverse in time?

Jonathan Puddle  20:24

They're always going in reverse in time, you mean, Tenet.

Dave Connis  20:27

Tenet! Yes. I was watching that movie. I was like, you just needed like somebody to say no to you. And I don't know if anybody was like, they felt good enough to do that, about the relationship. Tryphena, whatever you were about to say something too, I was curious about that.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  20:42

You said a minute ago. We want to be the main character in our life. But that's or the main character in the book. And that's not ever... like not everyone gets to be the main character. And that.. or sorry, I'm like, I'm summarizing that poorly. But goodness is that humbling. And then even Jonathan, you talk about like, the we are the soil that they grow in, right. And like, it's very sacrificial, because the moment they show up, not that our identity and our journeys are irrelevant. But it's very, like, it's a very humbling, I think, even while we're in my experience, and that anything I can do at any given moment, can profoundly impact that for generations to come. And what I struggle with in so many ways... and for our listeners, I have my daughter home sick today, and just, this feels like chaos in my body right now, and it feels frustrating, cuz I'm like, Oh, I'm trying to create and do what I love, and yet also be soil and be present for her. And anyways, it just, I struggle where those moments happen. And I'm like, oh, but this is triggering my body. And yet, I need to get my shit together right now so I can be what you need me to be, as well. But also be vulnerable and authentic with you, but also be soil, like, allow you to be the main character allow you to have your emotions and your feelings, right. That's, I dunno, I'm verbally processing right now with you.

Dave Connis  22:09

I would also add on too that we are soil for every believer to like, that's part of our calling that and also, I mean, not even just believers, I would say that any person that is in our sphere, that we are so we have rear soil for. I mean, maybe that's the calling, right, is that we are never our own main character. I don't know. And you think about that. But like, it seems to me that the life that we are called to in that way is to continually sacrifice for others, whether that be children, whether that be our friends, whether that be people we don't even know. But that that's the calling. And that takes you moving out of the frame and putting somebody else in. To your point, Jonathan, and I think in kids, it's a very unique way that we get to do that. Obviously, you were talking about feeling the chaos in your body. I know that feeling all too well like the tightness in your chest. And that just like feeling of your brain pounding, while you're like trying to do a thing.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  23:16

That is it.

Dave Connis  23:17

Yep, I used to write that way. And I hated writing during that time. So I stopped. Because that's all I ever felt with it. I get it. But then you need to talk about at the same time, you need to talk about the idea of taking care of yourself. So what does it look like? You know what I mean? Like you, you play that part, you're in this part, you're not the main character, but you need to still take care of yourself in a way that helps you do that. Because I think you can follow that trail and just say, Well, I just never do anything for myself and like then you become the martyr that is like always perfect. And that's not right, either. So that's awesome.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  23:56

Which I think then takes us back to that idea of co-creation, right? Like both God and Tiki get to write stories, they get to create the light and joy in their days. And that whole idea of like, if you're gonna love your neighbor, well, it's gonna love your child. Well, you have to be loving yourself well, as well. Right? You can't do that from an MP.

Dave Connis  24:15

Yep.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  24:16

Yeah.

Dave Connis  24:17

Yeah. And that I'm trying to think through so like this idea of co-creation is super tied to Genesis one and two. Where we're being called into that from the like, immediately, right? So I'm trying to think of like moment in that in that narrative in Genesis one, two, where there is this idea of being a part of the co-creation very specifically, and the framework of maybe a framework of rest in that. I mean, obviously, there's the like the god resting in in the work of creating, but I'm trying to think of like if that happens, post, when Adam is doing the work of naming like the animals and all have that stuff like co-creating in that way? If there's any, anything there and I can't remember but I mean, obviously there's there's a precedent for it because there was a day of rest that got.

Jonathan Puddle  25:14

Even if you just fast forward to the life and ministry of Jesus, right, like he is scandalously inefficient in his ministry model, right? Like, he rests, he eats and hangs out with friends. He does one time with crowd wants stuff from him, he just disappears and nobody know where he is. And he spent like 10 plus years of obscurity, building houses or something. So, you know, I mean, that speaks to me of like the craftsmanship of God, which speaks to me if creativity and co creation, right, I mean, God could have populated the planet with 7 billion people, each with unique and interesting backstories, like, Westworld or something. And it's like, boom, off you go now hit play, but didn't remember even actually, when the Lord of the Rings were those the the original trilogy were being produced, how they had built the set at the Shire and Hobbiton and planted everything and then let it just be for a year. It's just so it felt it was yeah, it was it was lived in it was real it, it had taken root, and had a reality to it. That wasn't just, you know, moments before the cameras began to roll. And that spoke to me richly at the time, of even of our creation narratives and our understanding of God creating the world. And, you know, the, the artistry of the cosmos. And, like, Yeah, we don't create stars. But we are made of stardust. And I have to believe that in the age to come, we will get to explore the cosmos, because why else wouldn't be there? If I don't get to check it out.

Dave Connis  27:18

Man, I resonate with that strongly. I've had so many conversations where I've mentioned Yeah, I'm like, I'm so stoked to like soak to go visit New Bora Bora. Like, because I may or may not get to see it now. And people are like, wait, you think we'll get to do that? And it's like, well, why why else? Why else? Like that's what we're we're redeeming the earth. Why would we just peace out? Like we're We are co-creating and CO bringing in this redemption and like, when heaven meets Earth, and there's all this like ideas and analogies around like All this has happened on this earth. So yeah, dude Cosmos, Cosmos exploration blog that be a blogger during that time? There's this wine that I think of all the time with parenting, and it's from maybe what's the second newest Star Wars movie? Is it the Force Awakens?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  28:16

That's a Jonathan question.

Jonathan Puddle  28:19

Yeah, I guess you know, the force of those Force Awakens. And then there was Skywalker, and then there was the last Jedi, or is it the last Jedi and then the rise of Skywalker?

Dave Connis  28:28

So I think it's I think it's the last Jedi where ghost Yoda. Obviously, it's talking to Luke. And he's talking about Ray because I think Ray just left. And Yoda says this is like the only line I remember from this movie, it was very impactful for me, the rest of the movie, not so much. But this line. Thank you, Yoda. Let me just say thank you for Christopher. And thank you, Christopher Nolan, this line think of Yoda because I don't know who wrote it. But he tells Luke in reference to Ray after he has been teaching Ray. We are what they grow beyond. And it's taking me a long time to think through that because I was like, that just sounds like a Yoda thing. But like, I think this is kind of going back to the idea of being soil. And the idea of, you know, we come to the picture with all the things that we have, right? And those things in theory are given to our children. What we have the experiences that we've learned in some ways they have to learn in their own way. But like, we have tools I have, I know that I have mental frameworks and tools that I will likely teach my children that my dad didn't have, he probably have has frameworks and tools that like that his father didn't have so this idea of at my stage, eventually my child will grow beyond that because he's standing on my shoulders from the work that I've done. And that's another thing kind of going back your question Tryphena that has constantly kind of pushed me forward to what I do. What I do is, is hopefully going to help push my children. And not just like financially, but just like, being present, taking things taking like myself. Not seriously because I don't like taking myself seriously. But like taking for the lack of a better term self care seriously taking, you know, trying to do things intentionally and think through things and make sure that I'm I'm holding tension well, and in all of the things that you need to hold tension with. And those are all things that will be inherited, like, the amount of things we inherit, I think is is likely pretty massive. So.

Dave Connis  28:29

You're so right. And I think that's a big part of what actually sets us up for success and not right if we talk about like intergenerational trauma, and how much that affects is intergenerational, not trauma also is so powerful. What's the word, I can't think of it right now.

Dave Connis  31:04

I don't know I have not heard of that concept. Intergenerational, not trauma, I think is a new corner on the market. Yep.

Jonathan Puddle  31:18

That's so rich, to change track a little bit but but stay in the realm of the books. We both really appreciated the racial representation in the books and, and the fact that your main characters are essentially girls and God,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  31:36

Creating together

Jonathan Puddle  31:37

Creating together. My youngest is my youngest two are both girls and my boys are older that I just yeah, what were you did you have some goals? Or some things in mind? Or was that up to the illustrator or kind of how and why did that happen the way it did?

Dave Connis  31:58

So for me, diversity has always been a it's something I've sort of been surrounded by and be something that I've, that has been important for a long time. So going into these books, I knew that it was something I wanted. I didn't necessarily say for Eva. Well, I named it I named her Eva. So yeah, that was that was like I came in to the way that the way that the whole series started as a kind of mess. I messaged the illustrator Amy Domingo, it's a whole story. I don't have to get into but like I sent her it started on Instagram. I found her stuff. I was like, this is the most adorable thing on the face of the planet. And I messaged her and said, Would you be interested in working on this book, it's called the inventions of God and Eva, and she kind of took it the way that that it did and then with Kiki, for whatever reason when my brain when I was when we were working through the second. The second synopsis is just that she was she was a little black girl who really liked stories that wanted to tell stories, that's just sometimes characters like hanging out with me. This is gonna make me sound psychotic. But sometimes characters come in like, they are here. And I see them and I know who they are before I even write them. They just like show up. And then we hang out. Sometimes it takes me forever to understand who a character is and what what like what they even look like but Kiki wasn't that way. She was just always Kiki. And she was always named Kiki. And she was loved stories and she was black. So I think when when I kind of gave the rundown so I do lots of illustration. That's when I gave the rundown that was just something I mentioned. And then there was a lot of there's a page there so there was just a lot of stuff that Amy did to kind of like boost this idea of diversity specifically when it comes to heaven. Which I love. Let's see if I can find that. Yeah, hold on let me do for listeners I have my screen blurred. I'm going to D blur myself so this page right here the coloring on everyone that was something we didn't talk about that just happened that appeared and that was something to I think that happened and even the so the representation and I might get in trouble for this one explaining it badly because I'm talking about illustrating God but notice the colors of all we call them the god jewels, but the colors of all the god jewels like they're all representations of skin colors. I've never noticed that it's beautiful. And there's like something else. There's a bunch of places where Amy took that like desire for diversity and did things like that was it that was that was just stuff stuff we never talked about. But she went she went the extra mile with it and I it was one of the reasons why I loved working with her because she was so freakin thoughtful about all of it. down to the like the lettering of everyone like, I mean the, you know the God jewels and showing inclusivity that way, we actually talked a lot about how to represent God in a way that was really careful. Like, how do we do that? Not in a way that is going against, I can't remember what, where it is. But like the idea of a graven image, and him being the creator, and not creating an image of the creator, and all that stuff that was really difficult, which is why we taught we make the joke about in both books, God is hard to draw. So.

Jonathan Puddle  35:34

I feel like that's like the most honest answer. Right? And, and thus it works. Even while being tongue in cheek. You know, our foster daughter had no faith, upbringing, and so entering into our family where we talk a lot about God and pray and so on, you know, it's like week three, and her her next question is, what is God look like? How do I know when I'm talking with God? Because I know what you look like, and your name is Jonathan. And so like, you know, and it's a very normal question that we don't have a ready answer for. With the exception of of Jesus, I did hear somebody say that the very reason that God says don't create any graven images is because he's going to supply one. One who looks shockingly like us,

Dave Connis  36:26

Like a human. Yeah, I've never heard that before. That's really cool. That's really interesting.

Jonathan Puddle  36:31

I cannot attribute it to anyone, but it's not original.

Dave Connis  36:34

Somebody somewhere. Yeah, that has been, that was a really interesting thing, trying to figure it out. I've been meaning to write something about it. Because I think people would find it interesting. Either that or like, skewer me or somebody something, it would be one of the two. Some people might find it interesting. Some people might want me to die either, too.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  36:56

That's the sweet spot right there

Dave Connis  36:58

Yes, that is the sweet spot. But like there was a lot of discussion about, like how to do it. And that so far has been one of the biggest things that when people read it to kids, they really liked the, when you introduce God, and like the the illustration of God, that some of the biggest pieces of feedback I've gotten have been like, they were just, they stared at that page for a long time, and that that page was really interesting to them. And I think it's exactly the reason you were talking about Jonathan, it's like we don't have a ready answer. And I like even in this illustration, it's like, obviously, that's not it either. So like, again, picture books that are not new religions that are funny, and that are also theologically accurate. Really hard. Yeah, for sure. Anybody who does it is this really hard?

Jonathan Puddle  37:56

But you but you crushed it, like, like you really did? Tryphena? What was it that Gram said,

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  38:01

Oh, thank you. So I read it to my kids, like a couple months ago, attempted this, and we did it over breakfast, and the first thing my son said is like, Oh, they look like me. And that's not a common, like sentiment for my children in especially Christian literature, right? Especially like, children's Bibles are all white blond hair, blue eyed. And so for someone who can create with God and hang out with God, to look like my children, was so impactful. It was like, so yeah, so like, if I made it the image of God and God that I like, also represent God's heart. So when we talk about schedules, right, it's all working. It was it was a conversation that we kept going back to it, the family, Oh, I see myself represented and how powerful that is, like, Kiki looks like my kids. And like in terms of skin tone, and it's God was in some ways, ambiguous, but carried part of their characteristics. So I really appreciated the representation just in terms of gender, if it was a female, especially in a Christian environment for that is significant. And then racially, like, it's been very powerful in our home. So thank you.

Dave Connis  39:13

That's wonderful. That's so good to hear. It's not I'm almost crying, but I think I got it. I think I'm keeping myself out and your drill, but like, I mean, it really is important. Right? And, and that's, you know, I'm obviously a white guy. Surprise, shock. To hear that, I think, reminds me, not that it is important, because I know that is important, but it reminds me that it is happening. Does that make sense? Like that there is a actual place for the stuff that is like literally happening in kids eyes where they see themselves and that that matters. So to hear those stories and to hear that I didn't butcher it which I'm sure it's coming at some point. But to hear those stories, I think is just really, really, I'm really glad to co-create in that way. And I love that I get to, that people get to see themselves co-creating in that way because like that's, that's it, like that's the thing like you and you hit it  right on the head, like, we're all made in God's image. And like that's something that we have all been called to, is that co-creation. So

Jonathan Puddle  40:31

there's a line that we highlighted here. And honestly, I'm still trying to wrestle my heart around this as an adult, where you said God thinks Kiki is awesome. He loves when Kiki does Kiki things. And I feel like I'm, I'm just scratching the surface of this idea that God loves when I do, Jonathan things. That the things that interest, my heart are even allowed, even, like permitted, and actually bring joy to the heart of God. And I mean, I've been preaching this to people for 10 years. But it's another thing to you know, think back in your court. No, you don't believe this? I'm like, No, I don't Well, I parts of me that do and parts of me that don't. Were How did you get there?

Dave Connis  41:28

So I think I've been in the Presbyterian denomination for a while, I wouldn't consider myself a Presbyterian. But I've just been in, I went to a Presbyterian school, specifically PCA school, if anybody knows about it is Christian Church of America. I think there's and we don't even need any help with this. We don't even need to go to school for this. But just being like self cynical and self, like, just hating on yourself. Like, that's really easy, right? Like, that's not a thing we need help with. So to think I think for me, my default, and this, I'm sure it comes down to Enneagram four stuff is to just automatically assume that I'm the one that's doing it wrong. And that if I could just be better at whatever the thing is, that the problem would go away, and that the thing would be better. So I just need to figure it out and do better at it than I was going to counseling a few years ago, for just a relationship that was that was really bumpy. And I just needed an outside perspective. And the counselor kind of said to me, like, hey, all these things that you're talking about as flaws? They sound like, parts of you that are actually not flaws. I don't know what you mean. Everything is a flaw. And he just said what like, what what does it look like to think about the fact that these things are fearfully and wonderfully made by a Creator who loves the loves of the way that you're made. And that and not that, like, you can't do any wrong, and not that you can't take your strengths and make them weaknesses, but like, just the idea of like, the fact that the things that we see about ourselves, and that we say, ah, that's just us is what I do, I'm just that way, but like that there are fearfully and wonderfully made parts of us that, you know, regardless of whether we get it right or wrong, and you know, there's like a heart thing to like, there is a there is a there is a level of, you know, where's your heart at when you do these things. So but like, regardless of whether or not I'm, you know, if I'm swinging and I'm getting this swing, right, this part of me that is swinging in the first place is something that was created by God to be makeup Dave Connis. So I think, I think, you know, that has been on my mind a lot in in opposition to this idea that we need to be focused on our sin, we need to be focused on how shitty we are, we need to be focused on like, our list of wrongs and all of our flaws. And that's just really depressing. It has its place. But it's definitely like, I think any counselor, if like they were to hear the amount of times you're thinking about that, we'd probably be like, hey, maybe reframe some stuff here. So like, I think we do that from a spiritual side. And there's no problem to it anywhere. Everybody's like, oh, yeah, yeah, you're just a shit head, yeah, that's like the foundation for like Grace. And in some cases, that's true. Like, if there wasn't sin, we wouldn't need grace. Right. So there's that whole mind pretzel, I think there's just all of these layers to what it means to be a human and it's not cut and dried. And I think we focus a lot and I know I do on how horrible I am at everything. And, and the ways that I could just be better if I could just be better than this wouldn't be a problem and to what you were saying, Jonathan, about this idea of the parts of you, that are actually things that God delights in, and having that matter, that's huge. That's something.

Jonathan Puddle  45:19

And then I get to just live into that for my entire life long and become myself. Wild.

Dave Connis  45:25

That's something. And I, and I think even just thinking about my, I've thought about so long, my, you know, my being a writer, my writing books as being adjacent to my faith, right as being adjacent to the things that God has made me I just developed this skill for writing. And it was, he was God that was kind of driving that. And then like, once the actual writing happens, like, then it's just be, that's not the case either. But that not only is God giving, like giving me the strength and giving me the skill, and the Holy Spirit is in interacting with that. But that like God is also delighting in the fact that I am writing books and that I am doing these things, whether or not there's, you know, it's a Christian picture book or a book about a kid who inherits a magical house. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that is that is so freeing, and, and something that I want to explore that more, I'm likely going to get it wrong and a lot of ways, but like, I just want to, I want to at least get it wrong.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  46:29

I think that's so powerful, because it also breaks down this idea between the sacred and the regular, because I'm blanking on the word and that it is right now, right? But it's like everything you're doing has purpose. And it's sacred. And like you representing the Divinity on Earth matches, it's not like Okay, so when I start writing this, all of a sudden, God's not involved in that, right. But you both are talking about just one, I love that you talk about you, we start talking about your parts, because the moment you talk about your parts, or anything internal family systems, Jonathan's like, blowing over there. I'm getting emotional over here, because as you both can see, I'm sitting in a chaotic space. And I've just every part of me is like self loathing in this conversation. And I'm like, oh, no, God delights. All of this beauty and chaos, and is in like the Tryphena isms of all of this. And that's such a hard reframe, because it's so against everything we're going to talk about days is like, what we are raised in, we're raised and like this is like this. From the moment we're born, there's so much shame on our identity immediately. So then, there's so much reframing that needs to happen constantly. Did you eat the jam on the floor, oh it was sunflower seeds.

Dave Connis  47:48

Please don't at least it wasn't like a goldfish. And then she ate it. There was one time we hadn't bought goldfish and like two months, like it was a while. And all this sudden, like I'm getting he's getting into the car. And I was like, What are you eating?

Jonathan Puddle  48:05

Why are your teeth yellow?

Dave Connis  48:06

He opens his mouth and it's a goldfish. And I was like, we had goldfish for like three months. Where did you find this?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  48:13

Oh, my goodness. Okay. I can match that. Because I've had that happen with chicken nuggets. Like, where did this come from? And why? Oh, my goodness.

Dave Connis  48:28

It's like when you look into the little cup holders, because you don't know what's what's gonna be in there. Then there's like a shriveled like burger patty from three months ago.

Jonathan Puddle  48:39

But you know, that stuff never actually goes bad. So that's good.

Dave Connis  48:43

I mean, they haven't died. So obviously, it's not bad enough.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  48:48

It just makes me laugh because there was a season in my life when I cared so much about what went into their body. And I'm like, and you're eating like, weeks old chicken nuggets.

Dave Connis  48:58

Yep. That's like one of those. We our daughter. She just doesn't eat dinner. She just doesn't. Like there's, there's nothing we can do about it. But like, you know, when you start off, you're like, I'm gonna make you're gonna eat all this yummy, healthy food. And now it's like, if you lick the chicken, just lick the chicken. And I will give you a giant piece of cake. Lick it. That's all I want. The standard.

Jonathan Puddle  49:27

Okay, I think honestly, there is a something of the heart of God in there, where it's like, it's like

Dave Connis  49:33

Way to bring it back. Well done.

Jonathan Puddle  49:36

Like, it's like I am I am redeeming the entire cosmos. That's just what God is doing. And you get to participate as much or as little in that as you'd like. And, and if you can lick a little bit of holiness and righteousness and love. And if that's all you've got, that's fine. I can work with that. And if you want to gorge yourself on those things love and holiness and righteousness cool. We can work with that also. I love this

Dave Connis  50:07

Masterfully done. Well done.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  50:09

That was a great bring-back. Kaiya would like to tell us something.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  50:13

"No I don't" [Kaiya]

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  50:14

Oh sorry Kaiya does not like cake apparently today. "Lick the chicken for cake" would not get her there.

Dave Connis  50:20

What would what would it take?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  50:23

"I did not want to say that!" [Kaiya]

Jonathan Puddle  50:24

She wants some delicious biryani.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  50:29

"MMmmmm biryani!" [Kaiya]

Dave Connis  50:30

Yeah, there you go. Okay. You just gotta know the right things. Yeah Jonathan I think like that's it right? Like it's the choice is ours. We eithere lick grace. And we we go all into being a part of that co-creation. So I love that you picked up on that Tryphena is like this idea that like that it's a co-creation like that we are we get to be a part of it. And that that's the in the invitation. And I just like I think I think, yeah, we, we can be a part of it if we want to. And that can look like all of the things that we'd like to do doesn't have to hurt. I think sometimes we feel like it has to hurt if you're not like killing yourself or like selling everything. And doing it all, like all or nothing then it doesn't count. But like everything counts.

Jonathan Puddle  51:25

Everything counts.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  51:27

So interesting. So my husband is a pastor. And he'll often say like, so he is like your typical pastor where he pastored, burned out, lay in the fetal position for months, and now is like back. But he talks about now in a healthier, where he where he is in a healthier space in his life, he feels so guilty, because he's like, I don't feel like I'm striving all the time, it doesn't feel as hard. And he's like on days, it doesn't feel hard. I feel like I'm not being as godly. I don't feel like as I'm as close with Jesus, because so much of the space journey has been built in these like, I have to muscle through for Jesus. Because you know, with God, I can do hard things. And so he really struggled with it. But it's so full circle moment, part of his journey of like preaching now is he's actually watched a lot of stand up comedy, because he's like, if I can actually delight in being on stage and engaging with the cause, like our congregation and it not be fun and humorous, then what is the point? Like? So even going back to there needing to be humor and delight and joy in it? That's been like part of his redemptive avenue of like, yeah.

Dave Connis  52:38

Yeah, that's really cool. And I resonate with that intensely, like, deeply, deeply. I think it feels better to beat yourself up and to like, to work out really hard, right? Like, like, if you don't run, and this is a thing to see in running. Like, if you don't run, like I think a lot of a lot of people are like, Oh, if I just run out a full out sprint, every day, that'll make me better at running. But then, like all of these pro runners are, well you do that you don't even run it the full capacity of a marathon. Like you're not even doing that until the day, what you are doing is you're running slow and steady, you're running bits and pieces here, then you have some days where you're taking days off, and resting. And that's like a huge part of it. So like going to the marathon, running the race, that rest is a huge part of it. And not like overtraining yourself, and going straight for performance. And like that's a huge part of I think, you know, I grew up in the evangelical tradition and performance in all aspects is a big part of that.

Jonathan Puddle  52:38

I love that.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  53:51

Which so even going back to your book, even the fact that Kiki could not draw God and you had all these crumbled pages in the images. It was almost like these mistakes that were thrown away. Are you done yet (Kaiye). But to me, it was part of the journey. Your mistakes arepart of the process. And it's beautiful. And actually, your mistakes are part of your growth. And you can try. Oh my goodness, for those. For our listeners. Dave is making the best silly faces for my daughter right now, which is great. But yeah, just the idea that we've had this idea where we need to have perfectionism and hustle hard all the time. But really, our mistakes are actually growing and trying and it's part of our discipleship process.

Jonathan Puddle  54:31

Amen. Okay, would you Dave, would you pray for us?

Dave Connis  54:37

Yes, I can. Dear Jesus, thank you so much for this time that we get to be together and that we get to just talk about really hard things, really good things, really confusing things, things that we hold in tension, things that don't make sense and things that do. I pray that you help us continue to think about these things and help the Holy Spirit to be involved with this in our thinking out of all these things, and just continue our growth, help us love our kids, help us realize what we're doing there. And all the other places that we are, who knows, just help us to remember that you're here, and that you're ahead and that you've already been victorious. And that we get to co-create that this is something we get to do, and that we can choose to do and that we get to do it with you and that that is awesome. And that we are a part of your story. And that not only that you love us but you also like us, in your name we pray, Amen.

Jonathan Puddle  55:49

Amen. Thanks, Dave. Thank you, Tryphena. Thank you Kaiya for your guest appearances. Friends, you'll find more about Dave at daveconnis.com, that c o n n i s. @DConnis on Instagram and @DaveConnis on Twitter. There's these two books, of course that we were talking about, The Inventions of God (and Eva), and The Stories of God (and Kiki), they are beautiful hardcover, fully illustrated children's books that are very funny and poignant, and have these just really organically woven insights about goodness and presence and generosity and love of God, I really, really enjoyed these books, and I'm picky. So get yourself one of those. And then he's got a number of young adult books as well that you can find you'll find him of course on Amazon, everywhere else. Dave is also a musician. You'll find him on Spotify. And wherever else you find your music search for David Connis. I want to say thank you to Thomas and to Sarah-Jane, both of whom have joined Patreon in the last little bit. Friends, if you love this show, if you like what we're doing here, please would you consider becoming a supporter support starts at $3 a month, or $30 a year. But you can give more if you'd like. You can find that at patreon.com/jonathanpuddle. Or if you'd like to give a one time gift to support the work. You can do that at jonathanpuddle.com/support. You'll find me on JonathanPuddle.com. You'll find me on social media @JonathanPuddle. If you happen to live in Finland, then keep your eyes peeled and your ears open because I am going to be coming to Finland to do some seminars around my book You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself The Way God Loves You. Those will be in May of this year. More details to come on that. And if you want to stay up to date on everything, make sure that you subscribe to my email list, which you can do. Again @JonathanPuddle.com. Alright friends, we're back in a couple of weeks with a B-side to this where Tryphena and I unpack some of these thoughts and I'm interested to hear how, how she decompressed the chaos of her that day. And then a couple weeks after that, another interview on the Puddcast. Thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing these with your friends. We'll talk again very soon.