#116: Building a better world (with Propaganda)

This week on The Puddcast we welcome hip-hop artist, poet and hope-activist, Propaganda. We discussed his debut book Terraform: Building a Better World, which is a collection of poetry and prose designed to jolt your imagination and get you thinking about injustices that we all take for granted. Prop can flip between talking hip-hop, politics, coffee, church history and science fiction at will… so we had a fun time calling out things that we want to see change in the world.

Order Terraform: Building a Better World, by Propaganda.
Learn more at prophiphop.com
Listen to The Red Couch Podcast with Propaganda and Alma
Find Prop on Spotify, Apple Music, etc.
Follow Prop on Instagram and Twitter

Donate to Steve Austin’s memorial fund for his family.
Order Steve Austin’s new book, Hiding in the Pews: Shining Light on Mental Illness in the Church

Support the show and my other work, at jonathanpuddle.com/support
Order my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.
Find every book or resource I’ve talked about recently on my Amazon storefront, in Canada, the United States or the United Kingdom.

Check out the B-Side!

Once you’ve listened to this, make sure to check out the raw and uncut B-Side interview where my friends and I unpack the conversation in even more detail. Available exclusively on Patreon.

---

Related Episodes

Transcription

Jonathan Puddle  00:02

Hello, my friends! Welcome back to The Puddcast, this is Episode 116. My guest today is Jason Petty, better known as Propaganda. He's a hip hop artist, poet, spoken word artist, and author. He's got a brand new book out called Terraform: Building a Better World. So Prop and I talked today about identifying the factors that build our identity, our origin stories, the things that have become normal for us that we just take for granted that maybe we shouldn't, and holding our opinions and experiences lightly, appreciating the long arc of diverse human history—as we look to build a better world, one where everyone can flourish and thrive. Prop has so many cool, amazing thoughts. One thing we didn't actually talk about at all is hip hop! So if you came here expecting a hip hop interview, my apologies—we talked about everything else—so that's not here. Anyway it's a lot of fun, great stuff in here. And if you're looking for links to his book, or for the text transcription of this, you'll find that in the show notes at JonathanPuddle.com/podcast. Let's go! Propaganda, welcome to the show. This is exciting. Glad to have you here.

Propaganda  01:26

What up what what up! Thank you, man, appreciate it. Glad to be here.

Jonathan Puddle  01:30

So like I was saying just before, you, I'm new to you. I'm like, I've been immersing myself, I've been listening to the music, I've been reading the book, and I... like to soak it all up. And I'm loving everything that you're doing and all your words and all these fascinating, different sources that make up who you are and these flavors and threads that inform you. But I would love maybe for you to introduce yourself to me.

Propaganda  01:59

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  01:59

I'm your newest friend.

Propaganda  02:01

Okay.

Jonathan Puddle  02:02

Tell me a bit about yourself.

Propaganda  02:04

Alright. You're my newest friend. Okay. Well, uh, I mean, first of all, it's like, there's 8 billion humans on the planet. So this, the vast majority have never heard my work. So like, I'm never shocked when somebody's like, oh, I've never heard of you. I'm like, yeah, about right, you know. But yeah, uh, my name is Prop. I am from South Central Los Angeles. I've moved around a lot in the LA and surrounding areas. I fell in love with hip hop very young. And it kind of became, in a lot of ways a North Star for navigating childhood, navigating preteen life and then politics, culture, and even like, you know, my, my beliefs, you know, justice, religion, all of it, like kind of, through this sort of experience of hip hop. And then, I'm a father of two, I got two daughters. I got a teenager and a toddler. So 15 and 5, I don't know what we was thinking. So I spend my days cleaning various hairs out of drains, you know, that's pretty much pretty much my days. Um, and I got a wife who's a PhD in educational policy and social context. A lot of times guys are like, "Oh, man, I married up" and I'm like, no, really? No, really. She's, she's out of my league. No, she... Yeah. Yeah. She's really, like, it's, she's a doctor. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I'm not like... a lot a time dudes are just sayin that cuz that's the right thing to say. I'm like, Yeah, but mine's a doctor. You know, so. So there's that, you know.

Jonathan Puddle  04:00

I had my wife... I had my wife guesting on a on a podcast recently. And I because I had said, I had Tiffany Bloom on the podcast here talking about why we silence women. And I said to her, that I'm ahh, I'm glad I married a strong woman, that I'm glad I married this powerful, educated, intelligent woman.

Propaganda  04:20

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  04:21

You know, and she was like, "Yeah, come on, say it. Say it once more for the people in the back." Well, my wife had never heard me say that.

Propaganda  04:28

Wow.

Jonathan Puddle  04:29

And when we did a B-Side later, she cried. And she said, I never I never really thought that you were glad.

Propaganda  04:35

Wow.

Jonathan Puddle  04:36

So anyway.

Propaganda  04:37

That's interesting, man, because my wife tells me to stop saying it. Like, it's too much pressure, man, you... every time you tell you just big me up like I'm just like this, like Einstein. And I'm like, well, you are and she's just like man what? Yo, chill, like, so she's like, I'm just a human, man. Can y'all chill? I'm like, says the girl with the PhD. So yeah, yeah, you're just a human. Got it. Oh, anyway, so that's funny man. My wife say the opposite. Can you chill? But that that's beautiful man. I guess we are both on a journey in our our feminism.

Jonathan Puddle  05:09

That's it, man.

Propaganda  05:10

Yeah, so yeah. So hip hop, poetry. My father was a Black Panther. It's kind of like the justice part of it. Um, I've existed in predominantly Latino neighborhoods. So in Filipino.... Latino and Filipino neighborhoods. So I've had a chance to, like, really just survey a cross section of culture, you know, that's kind of unique for a lot of people that I grew up so multicultural, you know what I'm saying. Then with the Black Panther father, you know, it kind of like, gives me a wide perspective on the world, you know. I've was taught to be very curious. So, and just kind of hold my, my thoughts and opinions with an open hand, you know, where it's like, equal parts, you know, confidence in humility, you know, that I could be wrong, you know? Been wrong before, you know. And just really appreciating this the long arc of history and culture and just, I'm just fascinated by all of it, you know.

Jonathan Puddle  06:10

That's so good. I can resonate with so much of that, man. I love that. I lived in five nations by the time I was five years old.

Propaganda  06:16

Okay, well, you got me there. But I lived in five nations, but it was all in Los Angeles.

Jonathan Puddle  06:21

Well, then I moved to Toronto. And so it's the same story.

Propaganda  06:24

Yeah same thing yeah, Toronto. You can travel the world in Toronto.

Jonathan Puddle  06:27

Exactly. All my Filipino buddies in Toronto. Yeah, that's great. So you're I was watching your Instagram even though I'm on a social media fast. Don't tell anybody but... I saw your book just arrived.

Propaganda  06:40

Good Lord, man, when you holding it in your hands, dude. The actual like artifact of it. It's like and especially because I was a visual artist first. So like, I took the creative aspect of like, again, the texture, the imagery and all that like, the color, the font, like I was like, hands on all of it. So to see it come together. My homegirl Mer, Maria Young, she you know, I've been I've been a fan of hers for longtime, she's a family friend. And I was like, dude, like this the artwork, you always take control, like, do what you do. And the way that this [unclear] came together. I'm just like, as Yeah, there's there's, I still get the butterflies, you know?

Jonathan Puddle  07:23

Yeah, the cover is like, it's like a tiger, caged about to... Like, there's like a caged energy. That's like about to leap out of the cover. When the first time I saw it. I was like, yo, yes, this is this is full of energy. I love this.

Propaganda  07:41

It's a book book. Yup!

Jonathan Puddle  07:44

So Terraform: Building a Better World. What's this about?

Propaganda  07:51

Yeah, so it's poetry and prose. So it's poetry and short form essay, you know, around this idea of, of terraforming. Which is—for all my, you know, science fiction nerds, they know what it is—but it's essentially the idea of like when you find a distant planet in the process of making it inhabitable to be able to like support life is called terraforming. So I took that as sort of a diving board for just an idea of like, what we should be doing here like, well, because if I don't know, if you've been around last couple years, it's getting less and less livable. You know, like, quite literally with our destruction of the planet but socio culturally, you know, in, you know, wars. Oh, my Lord, like what's happening in the freakin Fertile Crescent of, you know, Mesopotamia where culture started, you know, I'm saying they're bombing each other back to the Stone Age. So like, just we're becoming it's becoming less inhabitable? You know? So I thought about like, what if we took that attitude, and approached our world now, like, as if we were terraforming Earth? Like, what would we do different? What would we do better? What will we maintain? What will we stop doing? You know? And, and so it's just a journey, and that to really just stretch your imagination, you know, on what could be? You know.

Jonathan Puddle  09:13

Yes.

Propaganda  09:14

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  09:14

At the end of the first chapter you... or, I don't know if it was the first chapter because there's like an introduction. And then there's a few different...

Propaganda  09:20

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  09:21

And honestly, I'm reading this book. And I'm like, What, am I even reading? This is...

Propaganda  09:25

Yes!

Jonathan Puddle  09:25

wild.

Propaganda  09:28

That's the hope, man.

Jonathan Puddle  09:29

I'm enjoying it. And so... you, ok, you asked me... you asked all of us to make a list of everything that's normal. That maybe shouldn't be normal.

Propaganda  09:39

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  09:40

And I was like, "Oh, that's fun. That's fun." And then I'm in my podcast research brain, and so I'm gonna read on but I thought, No, hold on.

Propaganda  09:47

Wait a minute.

Jonathan Puddle  09:48

No. I'm gonna do this.  Wha'td you come up with? You come up with anything? Okay, here's the very first thing I came up with: Non white male bodies are almost universally sexualized.

Propaganda  10:00

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  10:02

That is normal and probably shouldn't be.

Propaganda  10:05

Yeah. I love it.

Jonathan Puddle  10:07

Like, first of all, I was like, women's bodies are sexualized and then I was like, it's bigger than that.

Propaganda  10:12

Yeah. Yeah. Just non white male bodies. That's good. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  10:17

So then I'm like, OK. To apologize when you cry or show other strong emotions in public.

Propaganda  10:23

Yeah. Dude, I like your list so far, man. Okay.

Jonathan Puddle  10:27

I mean, that's partly because I grew up with big emotions.

Propaganda  10:29

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  10:31

And, and I've, I've journeyed with that.

Propaganda  10:33

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  10:34

But I'll sit down with somebody, you know. And for a glimpse, you see the fullness of their imago day with feelings and tears. And then they say, "Oh, I'm sorry."

Propaganda  10:45

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry for being...

Jonathan Puddle  10:46

...back in their box.

Propaganda  10:48

Yeah, making this weird. It's like, Yeah. Why is that weird?

Jonathan Puddle  10:52

For real.

Propaganda  10:53

We all do it. Yeah. That's good.

Jonathan Puddle  10:55

It's normal to want more things.

Propaganda  10:58

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  11:00

But...

Propaganda  11:00

Yeah, dude!

Jonathan Puddle  11:01

I read. I mean, this is not, this is I mean, this is probably not news to a lot of people. But I read something in the last year or so that was basically just like, okay, describing my white Western Canadian lifestyle. And they're like, if everybody on this planet had your lifestyle, like the planet would be toast in like, 18 months.

Propaganda  11:21

Yeah, yeah, we would... yeah it'd be all bad. Two cars, you know.

Jonathan Puddle  11:25

I have 2 fridges, I have 3 fridges! And yet I seem to want more. So that's, that's not sustainable.

Propaganda  11:34

No, not at all.

Jonathan Puddle  11:36

To, to want to look young, fit and sexy at all times.

Propaganda  11:41

Yeah. What's up with us and the 20s?  Seriously. Like, Why? Why the 20s? Why? Why our 20s? Why is that the decade? It's probably the dumbest decade of mine.

Jonathan Puddle  11:52

Right, right?

Propaganda  11:53

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  11:54

I mean, I'm starting to go gray on the top here, and I want to feel good about it.

Propaganda  11:59

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's good.

Jonathan Puddle  12:02

This is the one that's really hitting me, thanks to interviews with wonderful people like yourself that are teaching me. Normal, but maybe shouldn't be: To feel like my experience of life is the archetypal experience of human life on this planet.

Propaganda  12:19

Yeah. My experience is the normal one. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  12:24

Someone said to me the other day on this show, "You know, it's not normal to even be white."

Propaganda  12:29

No.

Jonathan Puddle  12:30

And I had never had cause to...

Propaganda  12:32

Yeah, it's like, most humans are not.

Jonathan Puddle  12:36

Yep.

Propaganda  12:37

Yeah, that's good. That's a good point. Wow.

Jonathan Puddle  12:44

I'm trying to camp on that one, because clearly, it it's formed my entire life.

Propaganda  12:50

Yeah yea yeah yeah yeah. So good.

Jonathan Puddle  12:51

And continues to form me, but I'm like, this is really real.

Propaganda  12:54

That's good. Man, I never even thought of, I never even thought of that, either until you said it. It's like, Yeah, actually, you're not, not really normal. It's... there's very few of you in relation to the rest of the world. When you add it all together. That's interesting. I like that. Whoever told you, that's brilliant.

Jonathan Puddle  13:11

Do you feel normal? As a black man? Or have we have we have all of this conspired to not make you feel normal?

Propaganda  13:18

Man, it's crazy. It's like I always think about, like, context is king in the sense that it depends on where I'm standing. You know, I know my... and I fought back at it. So for so long, like, I like I said in a Black Panther home, black was beautiful. It wasn't until I stepped outside. And I thought everybody else was crazy for not thinking that black was beautiful, you know? So it seemed as though just living in obviously, in America, like, America did its best to tell me that I was "the other" you know, but when you're in sort of a supportive community, you're like, "Well that, I mean, that can't be true." You know what I'm saying? Like, and so it's just this like, there's a lot of just of feelings of just like, contradictory just this, like weird, dystopian, like, this dissonance.

Jonathan Puddle  13:57

Yeah dissonance.

Propaganda  14:11

Yeah, dissonance to where it's like, I don't, I don't feel like I'm an other. You know, and I'm like, cuz I mean, I have a 13 aunts and uncles. You know what I'm saying? Like, and they got all kids, and... and then there's our friends. And then what do you mean? You know what I'm saying and then just, and it's like, I'm in this Latino neighborhood. And I'm like, I don't, I mean, I know I'm different from them, but I have my family and I have this like, we're just, we're just but I didn't. Yeah, I ummm... I think my normalcy if I'm gonna say it wasn't necessarily as a black man, because I fought so hard against that in this Black Panther home. It was more American. Made me feel like I definitely took on that. Like well we're the center of the world and the whole earth speaks English because of us. And you all have to learn English and we're the apple of God's eye, you know, and I wonder why we're not in Revelation? It's like, well, what kind of question is that? You know what I'm saying. So like, once... you know, once you grow up and you're like, Wow, that's a that's a stupid question. Like, why would you... What do you mean "why are you not in Revelation?" You know what I'm saying.

Jonathan Puddle  15:25

Well, because, because half half of the scholars in this continent would say, "But America is in Revelation, brother."

Propaganda  15:33

Hahahaha. Go... [unclear]... like are, like we are we the antagonists? Like help me understand where! Yeah, you know.

Jonathan Puddle  15:41

See that's, that's the church I grew up in is like, it's all literal. And it's all about America. And I didn't even grow up in America, but like this eschatological...

Propaganda  15:49

So weird.

Jonathan Puddle  15:50

North Western exceptional thing, and that only... and certainly we're not the bad guy. Right? Like...

Propaganda  15:57

Couldn't be.

Jonathan Puddle  15:58

Couldn't possibly be.

Propaganda  15:59

Yeah. That's so funny. Cuz again, like, I'm sitting, I'm sitting in this church, and you start reading off the locations. And I'm like, Well, I'm not stupid. I can see a map the map right there. That's, those aren't white people! I don't understand. Like, I just remember being so confused, and just just shrugging it off, like, Oh, well, you know, white people gonna do white people stuff, I guess. You know, they just gotta like, just not thinking about it. And, and, or thinking about, like, how, you know... that the rest of the room is not shrugging this off...

Jonathan Puddle  16:35

Right.

Propaganda  16:36

As I am, where I'm just like, Well, you know, whatever, like, you know, like, I'm just like, they don't know what they're talking about. But it's all good, you know? But like, realize that everybody else is like, no, that's what it is. You're like, oh, y'all believe that? Like, Oh, wait, wait, seriously, you? You really think this about you? You know what I'm saying.

Jonathan Puddle  16:54

Jesus has got white hair and blue eyes, obviously.

Propaganda  16:56

Yeah. Like Yeah, no, he don't. You don't really think he looked like this? I thought that was just creative license. Everybody don't know y'all just taking creative license? Oh, so we Oh, no, he Oh, look, look this. Here's a map. Don't nobody looked like that there.  Like, yeah, that's crazy.

Jonathan Puddle  17:15

Okay, here's the, here's the thought that just comes to me right now. White people...

Propaganda  17:19

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  17:20

...got Empire so early.

Propaganda  17:23

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  17:24

That so degraded our own worth and personhood.

Propaganda  17:28

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  17:29

That we have been living with an inferiority complex ever since. And we've just projected that onto every, onto the planet, onto every other people group. Everything. Everything has been some kind of attempt.

Propaganda  17:42

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  17:43

To get more. To dominate more, so that we don't feel so small and worthless.

Propaganda  17:48

Wow. Hmm.

Jonathan Puddle  17:49

And then we taught everyone to feel the same way we were feeling?

Propaganda  17:52

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  17:53

I don't know.

Propaganda  17:54

That's interesting, man. Because like, I often Yeah, like, yeah, I think that sort of empire mentality. You know, I'm, I'm reading this book called Guns, Germs and Steel, which is a, I dunno if you've heard of it?

Jonathan Puddle  18:10

Yeah. I haven't read it but I know what it is.

Propaganda  18:12

Yeah, it's a I mean, it's a great book, it has a lot to do with, like, asking that question. Like, why did Europe reach out and colonize the world? You know, develop cities and in this idea of kingdoms and empires and enough and desire to expand it, why didn't it go the other way? How come like the Incans or the Mayans, why didn't they go across the Atlantic and conquer? You know what I'm saying so. And they're there. I mean, there's a few that they obviously, there's a lot of like, there's no way to answer this question. You know what I'm saying. There's a lot of that in there. But then there's a lot of like, well, there's, there's factors, it's like, well, do you have... did you have large mammals, you know, to be able to like, hunt and eat, you know what I'm saying, did you domestic? What about the food? Were you able to domesticate the plants there quicker, you know what I'm saying, and like, and just like, just this idea of, you know, well, if you leave people alone for long enough, are they going to all come up with the same thing? It's just like asking a lot of these questions. And it's saying, you know, basically, there's nothing special about, you know, Europe, like, genetically, you know what I'm saying, that makes them any different than anybody else. You know what I'm saying.

Jonathan Puddle  18:21

Our food sucks worse...

Propaganda  19:28

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  19:28

...than any other people ont he planet.

Propaganda  19:29

Which was me as I go, we gotta go, man. I can't keep eating... can't keep eating shit. No, but yeah, they, you know, he talks about that and just like that, there's, you know, there's a ton of factors, you can't point at one thing, but I do think it's interesting to say that Yeah, like, you know, white people as a modern term, you know, but you are just as tribal as everybody else, you know, and the, the, you know, the Danes and the Goths,  the Germanic tribes that took down the Roman Empire, you know what I'm saying, they were just as savage as any other savage anywhere, you know what I'm saying. So having a longer view of history to know that like, yeah, like... empires are a normal part of the civil... of the development of civilization. I think what's so interesting about what happened with white people was the concept of supremacy. And that, to me is like, that was the stain. You know what I'm saying. Like, empires come and go, and across tribal communities, it was like, yeah, it was about maintaining resources and power. But there was this thing that happened up there that was like, "Yeah, but we're genetically better." And that to me was like, Huh, that's... where y'all get that from? You know what I'm saying. And that to me, that one little freakin parasite, like, just riddled and destroyed... everything, you know?

Jonathan Puddle  19:36

Yeah.

Propaganda  20:04

So I think that and yeah, as you say, like it infected us to the point to where, even when we are unknowingly affirming this idea of this biological differences that make us stronger or not stronger, which, like, in a lot of ways, have their origins in white supremacy, you know. And, like, I catch myself all the time being like, "Well, you know, black people, you know, we could just handle blah blah blah blah, in our bones." And it's like, well, is it? You know, or is it? I don't know, man is I really how you want to say that? Like, I'm not to say that we're not unique in our experiences, but I think that uniqueness oftentimes have to do with the crucible we went through, you know. But but is it in your bones? I mean, I don't know. You know, like so. Yeah, that that supremacy gene to me is super unique about white the whites of the world.

Jonathan Puddle  21:57

For sure.

Propaganda  21:57

The whites.

Jonathan Puddle  21:58

Yeah. I think that's probably why why the Europeans hated... why we all hated Hitler, so much, because because he made it too obvious.

Propaganda  22:06

Yeah, he pointed at it. You're not supposed to point at it, bro!

Jonathan Puddle  22:11

Hitler!

Propaganda  22:12

Yeah hey, man, don't say the quiet thing out loud.

Jonathan Puddle  22:15

"Keep it down!"

Propaganda  22:16

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  22:19

Yeah, this won't work if people are talking about it. We gotta keep this under wraps.

Propaganda  22:24

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  22:24

So I'm writing down this list of things that are normal and that probably shouldn't be. And I'm looking at your list, you know, and the first thing that you wrote down, at least in the book is is is bipartisan politics.

Propaganda  22:34

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  22:36

And it was so interesting, because because when I read it, I was like, Yeah, yeah, for sure that, but when I went to write down my own list, I thought, hold on. Well, that doesn't resonate as much with me... you know what? Oh, because I grew up in nations with different political...

Propaganda  22:51

Yeah, totally. Totally.

Jonathan Puddle  22:53

So. So walk us through because because what happens next in the book is as soon as you go past this list of, of like, what's normal? And can we start paying attention, you start talking about our origin stories. So why do you start there?

Propaganda  23:08

Well, because I feel like it's like, well, before, like, let's back up for a second and be like, how are we constructing our own identities? You know, and, and however we construct our identities oftentimes come from our, what we view our origins of, and then, and then that's how we got to normal, you know what I'm saying. So like, well, let's back up a second, like, well, let's self critique here. Why am I what this is? Like, you know, like you said, we went into the I went into, like, the partisanship thing. And you're like, Well, wait a minute, where'd that even come from? You know, and so I think that like that, "wait a minute", you know, is, if we're going to imagine something different, like that's, you have to start there. You have to start at the wait a minute, like, how would I even Well, how did I get to where I am now? You know, I'm saying what, what, what in my historical narrative, you know, again, was the germ to get us to where we are, you know, for better for worse, because some germs are good, you know, but, uh, but yeah, what was that? How do we get here? You know, so yeah, origin story, the truth we tell ourselves are the stories we tell ourselves that shape how we see ourselves today is like, utmost important.

Jonathan Puddle  24:23

You wrote, "The beauty of a good story is that it draws out the beauty in us."

Propaganda  24:29

Mmhmm.

Jonathan Puddle  24:29

How do you interface like trying to tell a better story about yourself with like, I don't know not not ignoring or erasing the the bad stuff that like like...

Propaganda  24:42

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  24:42

You're not telling us to live in denial.

Propaganda  24:44

No, and I try to go out of my way to make that clear, that like, I'm just... I'm not, this isn't a denial. It's not a rewriting in the sense that I'm trying to erase the ugly parts because the ugly parts is a part of the story. The collection of it is is the beauty right? So an example in the book is this idea of, of what you guys would call First Nations people. Is is, you know, our indigenous, we would say. The Apache Tribe, you know, they have this, and it's in a lot of tribes thing called frybread. You know, and I just remember asking them, like, you know, I know a lot of tribes that use frybread. Like, what's the, what's the origins of this? I thought there was maybe some sort of like, you know, shared ancestor at some point that came up with this. And it was like, "No, it was poverty. It was because we were marched away by the American troops, and they gave us a ration of flour and oil. And we just made fried bread." You know, and I'm like, Damn, that's terrible. You know, like, and I felt embarrassed that I like brought up this rather ugly past you know what I'm saying. So I'm like, so So what's the story here? Is the story that they got marched away and was given this horrible, you know, thing you can't live on? Yeah. Is the story that they took that trash and made treasure out of it? Yes. You know what I'm saying. So the the better story, the beautiful story is like, is the treasure out of the trash. It's not ignoring the trash. It's how the trash, how how these people were able to make treasure out of it. So like, that's what I mean. It's like you don't ignore the trash. You don't ignore the ugly. You just you see how what came out of that ugly and it doesn't it and again, it don't excuse the ugly. That's still wrong. You know what I'm saying. What happened to them was still wrong, to this day, you know. But it's not the only thing. It's not how I identify myself. I don't identify myself solely by my oppression.

Jonathan Puddle  26:45

Yes.

Propaganda  26:45

Identify myself by the totality of who we are, you know?

Jonathan Puddle  26:50

Yes, yes. Wow. Yeah. Okay, that's good. I like that. I had a buddy in high school. He was probably one of my first... I guess I'd say African Canadian friends. Black friends.

Propaganda  27:05

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  27:05

And his last name was Van Dyk.

Propaganda  27:07

Uh huh.

Jonathan Puddle  27:08

I remember one time being like, "Dude, why is your last name of Van Dyc? Why don't you..."

Propaganda  27:12

Uh-oh.

Jonathan Puddle  27:13

Right? You know what he's gonna say. And I'm like, fully naive to that.

Propaganda  27:19

No clue. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  27:20

No clue, no clue why a black man might have a Dutch last name. And, and he spelled it out for me in no uncertain terms. You know, I happen to come from a part of the world...

Propaganda  27:32

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  27:32

Where the Dutch rather than the English or American or Belge...you know, and I'm like?

Propaganda  27:37

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  27:38

"Oh..."

Propaganda  27:39

That's it's like, yeah, like, My last name is Petty. So it's always funny when people go, "Oh, like the racecar driver, like Tom or Richard or something." I'm like, yeah, their family probably owned mine. Yeah, just stop the convo and they're like, Oh...

Jonathan Puddle  27:54

That's what happened with me and my buddy.

Propaganda  27:57

Yeah, he was like, yeah, yeah. The Van Dyk family owned my ancestors. That's why we have that last name. I'm just like, oh, oh, oh.

Jonathan Puddle  28:06

I think I probably gave him a hug.

Propaganda  28:08

I know, right. Like hey man...

Jonathan Puddle  28:10

16 year old me, I wouldn't have known what else to do.

Propaganda  28:12

Right. Right. Right. So funny, man.

Jonathan Puddle  28:15

You talk about a bunch actually, in the, in the earlier part of the book about the Doctrine of Discovery.

Propaganda  28:20

Yeah

Jonathan Puddle  28:20

And how it still shapes our stories. And for folks who don't maybe fully grasp some of that, can you walk us through a little bit of how, you know how this, this little papal document...

Propaganda  28:35

I mean, it's why we have Canada, and America, you know? This, this papal document, as in the, the Pope, right, they would put out these different like stances and statements about their theology and their stances on things. So the Doctrine of Discovery was this idea of like, "Hey for the glory of God, and of nation and kingdom, you need to do essentially what God told Adam to do," which was like, go and subdue the land, right? And when you do that, and bring them under the dominion of the church, right? And when you do that, whoever you are waging war against, well, they are the uncouth savages. So in that sense, you're doing the work of God by, you know, waging... go, I'm mixing my terms here, but waging what would be considered a holy war against the savages because they're somehow less...

Jonathan Puddle  29:38

Than human.

Propaganda  29:38

...image bearers. They're less human, they have not developed into the fullness of human you know, yet. And it's your job to do that. So if they die, I mean, this is a casualty of war. Of, of bringing the nations under the submission of God and country.

Jonathan Puddle  29:56

The "good news" of the gospel.

Propaganda  29:57

And to the good news of the gospel, so, and we still haven't shaken it like and so what, why the indigenous have such a special sort of place in our brain that we have to keep relearning, and going: "Well, no, they're just as human as the rest of us", unless, as far as like nation states are concerned is because the Doctrine of Discovery, you know. How you could still have a slave trade, the Doctrine of Discovery. You know, and just any of these things that are just like, how can anyone who professes to be a believer of the person of Jesus, could you do this to another human? Well, because the church said it was cool, like because I'm bringing this because I'm doing the work of God.

Jonathan Puddle  29:59

Yeah, oh well you know, George Floyd had counterfeit money.

Propaganda  30:27

Yeah, he had a lot of drugs on him. So you know, it didn't hurt him. Like he was he was super human. He was super strong. And, you know, black men, like, big black men like that. Like they, you know, they superstrong... because supremacy! Because we're biologically different, right? Yes. So, yeah, we're still in this in the shadow of that. Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  31:04

Yeah. Okay. And so, so your point, I think, was not just specifically how the Doctrine of Discovery shapes us today. But how all of these kinds of stories continue to shape us.

Propaganda  31:16

Yeah, so yeah, and, and, and the importance of looking back at that and going, there it is! That's where the, that's where the weed got in, you know, so we need to uproot that, you know. And then you'll start seeing a different sort of like harvest coming out out of yourself once you found out like, that's, that's the poison. That's the poison, you know.

Jonathan Puddle  31:36

We'll take a quick pause to thank my patrons. Big shout out to everybody who supports the show, whether they give monthly or annually or just one-time gifts. Everything is helpful. Everything is appreciated. Everything helps me keep doing this work, bringing these voices to you, and writing my books. I've got a bunch of writing planned for this summer while my kids are away, and I'm really looking forward to it. Big shout out to David, who is my latest patron. Thanks for coming on, man. If you are listening to the show, if you're enjoying it, if you would like to support it, if you would like to get access to the B-Sides where I unpack these interviews with my friends in greater detail, then you should head to JonathanPuddle.com/support. There you'll find a link to my Patreon. If you want the B-Sides you do need to join Patreon. If you just want to chip in, then you're free to give a one time gift and that's wonderful but if you do want the B-Sides, you need to join up for the monthly or annual giving via Patreon just because that's the way that I actually make it available. So I just don't really have a way of getting that out to you if you don't join up into Patreon, because that's where I put it. So anyway, love to have you, love to get to know you better, love to have closer access to you; that's what Patreon is for. Thank you for listening, thank you for sharing, love to you all. Let's get back to the show.  What happens when we don't? When we internalize our bad stories, you know, when when the only definition we have is, you know this... I mean, from from my example, it would be I am a, I'm a colonizer. Like if the only story I believe about myself is well, you know, my ancestors, they committed these evil, heinous crimes, you know, and I guess I'm my ancesters.

Propaganda  33:23

Yeah

Jonathan Puddle  33:25

And you know, for you, it's gonna be a different set of stories. Well, what happens when we, when we believe the bad stories and internalize those.

Propaganda  33:32

I think abuse. I think abuse for yourself and I think abuse to the people around you. And I think that you start the process of, in your own mind, and are dehumanizing. You know. And I think it starts with the dehumanization of yourself, you know, that you are not able to reckon with sort of the bits and pieces that made you who you are and your gift to terraform it, to reshape it, to rethink those things and to put into practice better stories, you know what I'm saying. But if you just stay there, I think, you know, what the what the right wing out here calls the victim mentality, I think well that's it. That if you're like, "This is who I am," and I'm like, alright, well stay in your house then if that's what... you know what I'm saying, like, well, don't ruin the rest of us, rest of our experiences because you're not ready to like, you know, you're trying to stay a caterpillar and I guess go ahead, you know. You won't die... that it's gonna kill you. You know, you're supposed to become a butterfly, you know, so. So I think that...

Jonathan Puddle  34:42

Morphosis is scary.

Propaganda  34:44

Yeah, I get it. I... you have no argument. You're right. It's scary. You can either I mean, you could avoid it or die. So... okay. Sure. Yeah. I've gotten to a place in my own personal life to where I'm like, I I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna fight fights, that I don't have to fight, you know. But I am going to present the jewels and gems of the world that I feel like I've been privileged enough to have. I'm not going to fight you over it. You know what I'm saying, like you said, like, well, staring into the abyss is scary. Yeah, right. Well, stay where you are then. You're just... I'm just not  gonna stay, like I looked into the abyss. You know, I jumped off the cliff. Well, how many metaphors you want me to use? I looked into it. I stared off, and was like, I'm gonna jump.

Jonathan Puddle  35:43

Yeah.

Propaganda  35:44

You know? And it's turns out it's beautiful. Beautiful. On the other side, you know.

Jonathan Puddle  35:48

That's it. I was talking to a buddy yesterday. And I said, you know, we sit here. We were talking about this in a theological context, cuz we're both in ministry, and we get people given us a hard time when, when our theology changes...

Propaganda  36:00

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  36:00

And, you know, we're sitting here looking over there being like, "Oh, that's strange, which means probably poison". So that's different than toxic. Meanwhile, I'm just gonna keep eating this garbage...

Propaganda  36:09

Yeah, totally.

Jonathan Puddle  36:10

...that's been making me sick for decades.

Propaganda  36:11

Yeah. I always laughing, especially the theobrogians, man, that's what I like to call them, and I'm like, when I'm like, Alright, so the day you became a believer, you fully understood the atonement? Or as your theology changed, has it grown? Did you get it then? Yeah, I didn't either man. You know what I'm saying? Like, I didn't, you didn't? You didn't get it? And neither did I, you know what I'm saying, like, Why Why are you so afraid? Yet... that's even this, like, looking into the abyss, a lot of that is has to do with like, your theology to, coming from our perspective to where you're just like, you got this naughty list of yeah, you know, that you're not supposed to read off, you're not supposed to eat from they table. And then you go over there, and you're like, actually, it's not that bad, you know. And, you know, for me, it was like, specially theologically, it's like, you start traveling the world. You're meeting these other circles of people that you taught, had horns going out, growing out of their heads, and you realize, like, Oh, yeah, not only are they just as Christian as I am, their faith's older than mine. Yeah, I'm like, oh, oh, you've been working on this longer than me. Uh, yeah. That that to me, like, man, when you realize like, that the Western church is like, it's 11% of the Body of Christ. Like the majority of the church don't think like us.

Jonathan Puddle  37:44

Yeah.

Propaganda  37:45

And, and they've been around longer. So you're like, Oh, that's why that's why I started off with, like, open handed humility. You know, like, I'm just gonna be open-handed about it. If you haven't grown in the last 10 years, and you're in your, the way you see the world, I'm like: that's a problem.

Jonathan Puddle  38:03

Yes.

Propaganda  38:04

I think you got an idol man.

Jonathan Puddle  38:05

Yes.

Propaganda  38:06

You know, yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  38:08

Yes! For sure. How much... how important do you think travel or being exposed to just like, totally different kinds of narratives are in just exposing your own stories?

Propaganda  38:21

It's irreplaceable. It's irreplaceable. You know, and I and I, and I say this, you know, from a place of privilege in the sense that I can travel, you know what I'm saying. But that's not to say that that person who lives in the remote village can't have a full beautiful and live a great life, you know what I'm saying because that that would be also again, very, very, like Global North perspective, you know what I'm saying. So I'm, that's not to say that but for, for the ability to know that there's more than just this jungle, you know what I'm saying, and I say that metaphorically speaking, the jungle of Los Angeles, you know, to know that there's more than this. I see nothing but benefit from it.

Jonathan Puddle  39:05

There are hamburger options other than In and Out.

Propaganda  39:08

There are. You're right, you know, there's... they're inferior, but there are they are.

Jonathan Puddle  39:13

Should there be?

Propaganda  39:15

 Yeah, the question is, well, should there be? Yeah, yeah. I mean...

Jonathan Puddle  39:19

One of my, my son, my middle son, all of his best friends at school are from Eritrea.

Propaganda  39:28

Yeah!

Jonathan Puddle  39:28

We've got this little...

Propaganda  39:30

Habesha!

Jonathan Puddle  39:31

...community of Eritrean families who've who've all escaped horrific things, survived in insane levels of adversity, to make it to Canada. And, the mom, sweet, lovely lady who my wife is probably going on a walk with and 20 minutes, said to us the other day, "Wow, you know, the government is giving us more money. We... the government keeps giving us support (because we're on lockdown in the school and because of COVID in the schools are closed), but the government is just handing out cash to us to help us. It's so strange that the government would help us."

Propaganda  40:11

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  40:12

And, and her entire framework of what the government is and isn't doing right now, is completely different. Cause all my white friends are complaining about how the government is not allowing us to go to barber shops.  As you can see from my beard. Haha, but her whole perspective on what the government is and isn't doing, totally different.

Propaganda  40:29

Yeah. Yeah. It's Yeah, it's all it's all perspective. You know what I'm saying. Like, how you have, the reality is like, yeah, you just, you know, I think CS Lewis says, like, if with reading, you know, you get 1000 set of eyes, you know what I'm saying. And I'm paraphrasing, obviously, so you having all these, like, Eritrian, you know, and East African Habesha, like people in your life, like, you just got, you just got a brand new set of eyes, you know, and, and it helps you, like, reflect back at yourself, like, what am I really worried about? Like, you know, yeah, can't go to a barber shop, All right, okay.

Jonathan Puddle  41:13

Right.

Propaganda  41:15

You got scissors, fam? Like, if you can cut, you can cut a beard if you want to, you know? Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  41:22

So you lead us into prophetic imagination, you ask us to cultivate, to do what's necessary to cultivate a prophetic imagination, and dream of a bigger world that we could... a different world, rather, not a bigger world. See there? Bigger is a way I haven't conditioned to the culture... Of a different world that we can then go to make. What would you leave us with?

Propaganda  41:44

Man, that the sky's the limits, bro! Like, is that like, a imagination got us where we are now, you know? And but if you look back at something, and you're like, Yo, I'm not. I don't like how this is, then think of something else! You know, um, and accept that norms are made. We make norms, you know. So if... let's make new ones. I want to leave people with, not with like, you should do this. But like, you can come up with what should is like, use the sky. I can't stress this enough. The sky's the limits, bro. Like, use your imagination. You know, ummm, all of our norms were made up. All of our institutions were made up, you know. So then let's make up new ones. Because we clearly, I mean, we need new ones, you know. So we got to make them up. It's on us.

Jonathan Puddle  42:38

Yeah, word.

Propaganda  42:40

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  42:40

So I know you're a coffee snob, and we've just been talking about East Africa. So where do you... how how much do you love, an Ethiopian coffee ceremony? You like it black and sweet?

Propaganda  42:51

Oh, you see you see that? You see the coffee bar back there.

Jonathan Puddle  42:53

Yeah, hahaha.

Propaganda  42:55

Yeah, no there's nothing like it, that had getting the jebena together. And like, yeah, like, there's nothing like it. I mean, it was the one time in my life I ever felt like, Okay, this is, this is, time has, time has stopped. I'm truly present, you know, sitting in a village in Ethiopia, drinking a... after a coffee ceremony in the back of like, a convenience store where this lady lives with, you know. It just, yeah dog, there was nothing. There's nothing that could... I my life would never be the same after sitting there. You know, like, it wasn't the tourist one. It was some lady's house was like, Hey, you want some coffee? And I was like, Yes. Yes. I want some coffee. You know, and just the smell of the popcorn like, nah. Yeah, it was. There's nothing like it.

Jonathan Puddle  43:44

Because we did the colonizer thing to the coffee to like everything else.

Propaganda  43:47

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  43:48

And you...

Propaganda  43:48

Yeah, and there's a poem in there about that. Man.

Jonathan Puddle  43:51

"Yeah, that's ours, too." And I remember...

Propaganda  43:53

Yeah yeah yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  43:54

...sitting with this Eritrean family. And, and, and she said, we would love... it was our first time and they cooked for us. And then they said, you know, this is what we would do next. What would you have coffee with me? I could tell that there was a sacredness to this. I was a little ignorant to it. But, but I could tell that this was an invitation, you know, and I'm so, like,

Propaganda  44:15

Yeah, and what they'll tell you is this, dude, I know. It's the same, I know it's like this in Ethiopia. Like, if we didn't like the, the company, your company, they'll offer you tea. Because it's fast. Tea's fast. Like coffee is gonna take 45 minutes to an hour, you know, I'm saying so it's like, if I'm saying, hey, you want to sit down, have coffee with us? It's like, okay, we actually are enjoying our time and we're enjoying your company. We want to have conversation with you. We want to continue what we're doing, you know. Because it's not fast, it's very slow, you know? And once you know that about the culture, it's like, yeah, just, it just, it just means so much more, you know. The sacredness of it like and especially like you have something that was discovered in the 1600s. It's like, we had 500 years to perfect it. Of course you going... Of course you going to perfect it better than the rest of us. You know, and that's, that's, that's another thing I love about it. I'm like, ya'll figured it out. You had 500 years to figure this out. And you did. And I know there's like some beef, you know, between like, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Yemen, like who did it first and who made it better? I'm just like, I have no skin in the game. Except that my ancestors are Ethiopian. So like, I'm a vote this, but I aint find out till recently, so like don't quote me on it. But the point is, I'm like, I'm just glad y'all did it. You know.

Jonathan Puddle  45:37

Yeah. Dude, would you give us a prayer or a blessing or some kind of benediction? Maybe upon our imaginations?

Propaganda  45:45

Yeah. Yeah, man, I guess right now, my, my heart and soul is with, you know, my mind's on Palestine, you know. And ummm, sort of the, just the scourge of what we're talking about just this idea of empire and like, the modern nation state and expanding borders, just the geopolitical part of it, you know. That's very separate from the humans that exist inside these made up borders, you know what I'm saying. Like, the humans that exist inside are the ones that are experiencing the pain and suffering of this, like, you know, institution that continues to throw bombs, you know what I'm saying. So my heart is heavy for, you know, the people of the region. And so, I guess I just echo, you know, the, the cry of, of, you know, the prophets of that era, you know, which is like, man, I just, I just, I pray for peace in the land, you know. And umm, we would not continue to abuse our fellow image bearer, and like, you know, I I don't know how your listeners would take this, but like I am, my finger is pointed at the nation state of Israel, you know, because in this scenario, you're the bullies.  You know what I'm saying. You got the guns, you know, and you're, you're doing the empire thing, man, like, you know. And, I know I don't live there but it's kind of hard to not see, you know, this is not a... this is not a critique on Israelis or on Judaism. I'm talking about the post-World War Two nation state, doing what nation states do, you know? So I guess my heart is like, man, I just... may there be just peace and tranquility and and a recognition of family across these imaginary lines, you know what I'm saying. And that you know, this brother against brother, man, like, just pray that God would just cause it to end, man, like, ya'll family. Like, you don't see this. You don't see you family? You know, and, yeah, so I guess my prayer would be to echo, you know let's pray for peace in the land, dude.

Jonathan Puddle  48:14

Amen. Thank you Prop. Really, really enjoyed that connection, we had a bunch of discussion off-air as well. So go and check out his book Terraform: Building a Better World. It's like a mixture of poetry, essays, artwork, all written or chosen by Prop to challenge us to like imagine a different world, a better world, and to do the work of transforming, of terraforming this world into that better world. And it's fun, it's really quite a unique kind of project. I really enjoy it, recommend it. It's a great resource to jolt your imagination, to shift your even your creative flow and your problem solving perspectives about the world. Start paying attention to things that maybe you've stopped paying attention. So go check that, it's in the show notes. Of course also go and check out Propaganda on Spotify and Apple Music. His hip-hop will fill your soul with fire and energy and get your feet a dancin’ as well. Prop also has a really great couple of podcasts, he’s a, does a bunch of stuff himself and with his wife he hosts The Red Couch podcast together, and they talk about all manner of important things. So check that out, you’ll find those linked in the show notes. Friends, in other sad news, some of you will know Steve Austin. He did a bunch of amazing work in the mental health space. And he died over the weekend. Steve was a friend and colleague, he was due to be on The Puddcast in, in the Fall. So I'm hoping to still be able to do something around his forthcoming book Hiding in the Pews: Erasing the Stigma of Mental Health in the Church. I think that would be really wonderful if we can still do something about that book and help promote it, help support his family. There is a GoFundMe available now for Steve’s family, so if you would like to give that would be a blessing to me to know that we had stood by his family at this time. You’ll find that linked in the show notes and on my social media. Still asking that his family's privacy be respected and they be given space to process and grieve. But... if you are processing and grieving that yourself, just know that we're here. Many of us are thinking about many of you. Remember that grief is not a linear process. The heart moves at the speed the heart moves. Get angry, be gentle with yourself. Drink lots of water. Go slow. Let it all flow. And pray for his wife and kids. Much love my friends. We'll talk soon.