#135-B: Unpacking Brad Jersak and the idol smashing of deconstruction

Here’s a new Puddcast B-Side, unpacking idol smashing and how to create a welcoming, forgiving space as we deconstruct from toxic theology. My pastor, Amy Ryan, joined Tryphena and I to discuss our takeaways from Brad Jersak’s thoughts on the necessity, perils and possibilities of deconstruction, including how painful and confusing it can be for us in the midst of it. We examined our own parenting in light of power dynamics, and how each revival or movement in the church or culture persecutes the one that comes next. As usual, there’s loads in here.

For maximum impact, make sure you listen to the source episode, #135: The necessity, perils and possibilities of deconstruction (with Brad Jersak)

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Transcription

Jonathan Puddle  00:00

Hey friends, welcome back to The Puddcast B-Sides, sorry, we got a little loop de loop mixed up ordering here. That's because sometimes life doesn't allow things to happen the way you expect it to. I don't know if you've ever experienced that in your lives before things not working. But if you have never, then I'm afraid spoiler alert, sometimes things don't work great. Anyway, here we are. Tryphena, hello, and our special guest, Amy Ryan, who has been on the podcast and on the old addition B-Sides that, we're just on Patreon Before. Amy is my pastor, and one of my best friends, so.

Amy Ryan  00:37

Hey, glad to be here.

Jonathan Puddle  00:41

So we've been trying to record this B-Side. Because we always do a B-Side and especially like this interview was discussion was so interesting, and so fun and so layered. But here we finally are, and we are all kind of coming in hot today, we have had various things in our lives, that are just like amping up the temperature. So just to forewarn you that, that we were all coming in hot today. So deconstruction, how about that anyone deconstructed here? Oh, did you Amy, did you catch my deconstruction joke that I like threw in on Sunday when preaching when I was like, because I was preaching from John nine. And talking about how it says in the text that the Jews had had been banning people from the synagogue who became followers of Jesus. And so in for setting the context for John nine, and I told the church it's the Feast of Tabernacles. Everyone's wondering if Jesus is coming to Jerusalem, but they're wandering privately and secretly. There's like mumbling and muttering and whispers going around. Do you think Jesus is going to be here? Is he really the Messiah? Who is this guy? Right? It's, it's happening, but it's happening in secret. And then I couldn't resist. I was like, like deconstruction, like, have you deconstructed your faith? Oh, no, don't tell me about it. You'll get in trouble for that. And it just slipped out. It just slipped right out. And I thought, Ah, well. Whatever.

Amy Ryan  02:11

It made me smile. So that was a great message.

Jonathan Puddle  02:16

Thank you.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  02:20

I think that's true. Go for it, Amy.

Amy Ryan  02:23

It's been good. Like, just even we've been as a church just talking about deconstruction, and, you know, kind of getting the taboo out there. It's kind of like this word that so many look at it is like, oh, no, and but yet, they don't really have an idea of what it is sometimes. And so it's been good just to talk about that. And then bring more understanding, right, even those little ways as little jokes.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  02:48

I think it's so powerful, because words have so much power. And I think, especially within the faith community, so many words have negative connotations, right? Like, even recently, there was a whole thing around the word woke or around like sexism...

Amy Ryan  02:52

Yes!

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:01

or patriarchy, or deconstruction. And I think it's like, it's so amazing that you're just you're normalizing it. It's like, we're all going to walk through a process of deconstruction in some way at some form. In our experience, which is kind of what I loved even about this conversation, you guys, both all three of you started off the bath, the bat, not the bath. It's not a monolithic.

Jonathan Puddle  03:27

Three white dudes in a bath.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:31

Amazing. Oh, gosh, here we go. See? It's not a monolithic experience, right. Like it is very, everyone's experience will look different based on their social location.

Amy Ryan  03:42

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  03:44

And that is why this conversation is so important to say, hey, like, your deconstruction may look different than my deconstruction. And that's okay. There is no one right way of doing it.

Amy Ryan  03:57

That's so true.

Jonathan Puddle  03:58

Yeah, precisely. And like, I think it was really helpful for me to just be reminded like this. This is a much bigger, like Brad's words were like, this is a much bigger historical project. Like that goes back to Moses, and the golden calf like this is smashing idols. And our Bible is literally full of this, on the one hand is like, why is this even controversial? But I guess, on the other hand, is well, it's always been controversial, so it'll continue to be controversial. Having the spirit open your eyes and deal with your idols remains a thorny, tricky issue.

Amy Ryan  04:32

Yeah, I found like just sitting down with lots of people and having conversations where they're just like, Amy deconstruction is so bad, you know, and they're just really putting pressure and then when I just, you know, start to break it down. Like it is taking out idols. And then that's the language in the church that is very recognizable. You know, okay, taking out idols, I can understand that, you know, and we're looking for the things in the church and then they're like, well, there's nothing wrong with the church. A lot of people, you know, there's that fear, you know, like, I don't want to, I want to honor my parents, I don't want to say anything bad that they did, or I want to honor the church, in some people don't want to recognize some of the systems in place and stuff, you know, especially sometimes men. And so it's, it's just like, oh, actually, these are some things that are going on in the church that are not okay. And as you start to name those things, then they become more like, oh, yeah, well, I could see how you'd want to deconstruct that or reconstruct whatever the word you want to use. But what what I really found that's helped me is using the word reformation. And so I'm like, the church needs to be reformed to Christ, the church needs to look like Christ. So we need to take down get rid of these things and reform to something new and good and whole. Yup.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  05:50

I love I love that. And I love that part of like, wholeness. So when Mark was I don't know why Mark, my husband was talking about deconstruction in a sermon like, kind of like you, Jonathan, I'm like, I have no idea what's going to slip it. But he was explaining it in a way. So I have a gluten allergy. And so often, when I go to a fast food restaurant, I will order a burger or a breakfast sandwich, and I'll order it deconstructed. Because if I just say, hey, lettuce wrapped, I will get lettuce around my bun. Like, I just want the bun, the cheese, the meat, the tomatoes, like all of it separated, I will eat what I could eat, because I still want the nutrition, I still want the fuel. But I don't want the parts that are going to harm me. And so he was like, Try that's in the same way what we are doing, as a faith community, you still want the meat? But you don't want the parts that have been harmful to your body and your soul, so.

Jonathan Puddle  06:44

Right unless meat specifically is, is what's not working for you. And so you can't eat bread and you can't eat this. And it's like, yeah, and we're all in community. This is I guess, is the part of the challenge, right? Is we're all in community, trying to discern how do we move forward? Okay, when this part is the part that hurts somebody else, and that part is the part that was life giving for somebody else. I think also like that, okay, on the one hand, this plays out in community. And so it's weird when you're up close, and somebody's saying, like, oh, I need to come free from the Catholic Church, I grew up in the Catholic Church, it was really toxic for me. I had all these particular things that I was taught, and it really, and I'm just I'm really worked up about the Catholic Church and, and then I'm like, Ah, because I baptized my kids, Roman Catholic, like, four years ago. And it's been really, really life giving. For me, that's tricky and weird to do in face to face community, let alone when you then abstract that to social media faux-community. And it's like, international multinational, like I've watched my folks that I know, in England or in New Zealand, get really confused when I'm pushing back on purity culture, and I'm saying purity culture, harmless and all these ways. And I've got people saying like, I do not understand what it is that you think is good about promiscuity. Where did you hear me say that promiscuity was good. I didn't say that. I'm saying purity culture harmed us in all these ways. And they're saying, when you say purity culture, all I understand is that we shouldn't be sleeping around. I'm like, Okay, well, when I say purity culture, I am talking about this whole thing, socio cultural, economic, religious reality of the 90s and early 2000s, and so on and so forth that harmed us in all these very specific ways. Okay, so that those words don't even mean the same thing to you. Like, how do we even the words mean something that journeys are different?

Jonathan Puddle  06:50

It's like, yeah, we it's not monolithic. But it's like very even hard, I think sometimes to even talk about. And yet, like, when when we get into it, like Amy's saying, like when we start to unpack it with some one of the time I'm finding especially like, folks, like one of my mentors was like, oh, yeah, like we were, we were all doing that when back when we were in our 20s and 30s. Now we're just in our 60s and 70s. And we forgot. I'm like, okay, just don't forget.

Amy Ryan  06:50

Yeah.

Amy Ryan  09:16

Yeah, it's just got like, this whole stigma around it. That's like, oh, everyone is doing it's just walking away from God. Right? And everyone who's doing it in this kind of idea in some in some places, and it's just like giving the language and the understanding, and the listening. And, and then clarifying is so important, right? It's just like you said, with the purity culture. I found that so much like people like oh, I have a problem with purity culture, and then I'm like, Oh, why? And then I began to realize how purity culture was toxic to me, but I was like, like you said, thinking it was the specific thing. And then when you get some more understanding, you're like, okay, and since there's so much more can we let go of our rightness of our our life? Black and White, this is my way, this is your way? And can we learn to come to the middle and listen to each other, and all grow and realize them that we're all deconstructed to some extent or reforming? You know, to a more Christ, like, way of life is where we want to go, you know?

Jonathan Puddle  10:22

But Should that not be the daily process?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  10:24

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  10:26

What did you want to say Try?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  10:28

Oh, I just I agree, it should be a daily process. And I was gonna say, I feel like, we don't do this well, but as a culture and a society, I do think we are moving towards doing this well, even in like our educational system, understanding that there is not just one type of learner understanding that you know, that pendulum is gonna swing swing, and how we're going to look at like, like educational pedagogy I think of Okay, so, as a child of immigrants, this is like, I know, that sounds like it's coming out of far left. My parents are immigrants, so they moved to the country. And like, without being intentional about it, the mindset is to assimilate, you're gonna fit in, you're going to speak the language, you're gonna speak without speak without an accent, you're going to not smell like her, you're going to do all of these things, I'm then going to be a first gen. And I am going to want to be nothing like my parents. So even more so than them, I'm going to reject my culture, I do not want to speak the language in public, I do not want to do all these things I then I, and I'm very hesitant to be proud of my culture. second gen these children of mine, friggin take fish, curry for lunch, language and are so proud of it. But there's a part where just philosophically and anthropology like anthropologist, clearly I'm not whatever, you know what I'm trying to, like this spectrum, like the pendulum is going to swing and we know that it's going to happen, we acknowledge that it's going to happen, like I just go into having second gen children knowing they're going to embrace their culture in a way that I have not been able to, and their children more so and then it's going to go backwards. But for some reason, in our faith world, we're not okay with knowing that it's going to have to swing in your 20s, you're going to go through this really big, like the critical thinking space of having to unpack the world around you. And as you move towards your 60s, you are going to solidify what has worked for you, and be okay with that. But then we forget that the next generation is going to have to go through that again, on its own with different topics. And we're gonna have to unpack purity culture and generations before I've had to go through civil rights or whether it was like Holy Spirit movement are all like, you know, and I mean, these go in cycles. But I love when Richard Rohr talks about, like, we're constantly having to move through these cycles. And we should just acknowledge that this is how life works. And it's not stagnant, it's not linear. And then we would not be so shocked every time this happens.

Amy Ryan  12:47

Yep. I've been thinking a lot about how like the next revival rejects, or the previous revival and the people from that seem to reject the next revival and the next revival. And I keep thinking about that, and how that, you know, is exactly as you said, right? Used to solidify this works for me, and then you're like, but what you're doing now, that's not what you should be doing. You should be thinking like, I've I am and come to what I have come to, you know

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  13:16

Yeah, that's so good. And I think that's a human culture, right? Like, the next revival of the previous revival rejects the next revival. I think of even like, as women. I am like, Oh, my goodness, parenting is so hard. Life is so hard. This season is so hard. And then I see young, like moms who are younger than me, and I'm like, How are you struggling? What do you mean? Like, I was like, that should not be that hard. Don't you know how hard this season is? Like, we always look at our journey. And I mean, understandably, we only know our journey intimately. But we always look at our journey as the hardest journey. And so when we find a way that works, or like, What do you mean, you didn't find a way that works? It looks like mine. Like? It's very, very interesting, which is, okay, so, which is why I think this conversation is so important, even that we're having today, because I loved listening to you, Jonathan, and Jonathan Martin and Brad Jersak, unpack it. But the reality is, your social location is three white men who are white men of privilege, and you acknowledge it, you talk about it, but it still doesn't change that that is your social location, as well. And so I think it's so important that we unpack what deconstruction can look like in different communities, different genders, different cultures. So even when Bradley Jersak was like, well, that's why his relationship with Lisa Sharon Harper is so important because he can't just throw out all of the church you can't just throw out because then he'd be throwing out his experience of the Church, which is white evangelicalism.

Amy Ryan  14:19

Yes.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  14:21

And not acknowledging black church or other ethnic streams of how they do church and they do theology.

Jonathan Puddle  14:49

Yeah, I think the quote was, if in your deconstruction you walk away from the church as this thing because it's full of white nationalism, and you don't investigate the life and gospel happening in the black church, then you're walking away is still an act of white nationalism.

Amy Ryan  15:05

Yeah. So good.

Jonathan Puddle  15:11

Which is definitely like a obviously we've just spoken with Lisa ourselves and that, you know, having to work through my issues of social location with her and us doing that together. Yeah, I'm really intrigued, like, just kind of tying tying this all together. Like the the white feminist movement failed to do anything for women of color. Yeah, like, this is a known thing. And I, I recognize I'm speaking from a distance in that, I'm gonna continue speaking from a distance, I've observed ways that the gay community has not been generous towards the trans community. And this kind of thing of like, what you're saying, like, my life was the hardest life or was sort of like, I had to do so much to carve this out. You're not about to get a free ride.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  16:11

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  16:13

Which is really, really unfortunate, like a really, really tragically unfortunate attitude like, surely, surely we could come to a place where like, this was so hard for me. I would not want anyone to go through what I had to go through. Because that not one, like when we're in our health as parents, is that not like, we want to offer our children and easier, better experience than we had? We don't want them to have to fight all the same battles? We did. Right?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  16:45

Yeah. So I think the interesting part is what you said, when we're in our health as parents, because Absolutely, we want our ceiling to be their floor, we want them to not have to go through the same traumas we've been through. But at the same time, how often are we like, you think your life is hard, I had to walk up a hill both ways And in like five feet of snow, right?

Jonathan Puddle  17:05

Every Day!

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  17:08

Like, we're also reminding them of how hard it was for us, or also, and I'm hesitant, like I'm, I am guilty of this, I have still not allowed my kids to go for a sleepover, because of my own sexual trauma. So then I'm like, also very protective of them. There's a line of being protective. And there's a line of well, my pain is also now sheltering you. And I need to figure that out. Right. So I think you're exactly right, what's like when we're in our health, we don't want them to go through the same pain, but even protecting them from the same pain cannot always come from a place of health and holeness.

Jonathan Puddle  17:44

Right.

Amy Ryan  17:45

Yeah, that's when in the podcast that really hit me was that when Brian was talking about some of the pastors and they, they had walked away, and they were kind of mentally completely destroyed. And it really hit me, and about, like, doing it with the Holy Spirit. And like, letting your deconstruction be led by the Spirit, and I was just like, weeping. And at the same time, he was talking about being steamrolled by it, and then good one day with it, and then another day, and all of that kind of the trauma that you're dealing with the pain that some of this stuff cause and also the freedom side of it. And then I think it just really hit me that, you know, in my journey, I've been led by the Spirit in this, but yet being rejected by so many, even still, you know, in that, and I think it's like this need to like you need to think exactly like this, or like this. And it's like, no, I want to be led by the Spirit. I don't want to fit into any mold or in any box. And even in deconstruction, right? There can be these boxes that you want to tick that you want to fit into. And every everyone's journey with the spirit is different. And everyone's traumas are different. And everyone's things are different. But it's just like, really clinging to the spirit in that but also trying to recognize people going through that and being like, I see that you're being steamrolled. I see that this isn't easy. I'm gonna walk with you in this. And I just I was just like, we've been through that stuff. Just all of that just so resonated with me that one day I'm like, this is freedom. This is so good the next day, and like all the drama, all the trauma that this is causing all the pain, I feel so alone, but also feeling the spirits leading.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  19:37

And I have so much respect for you Amy because you're doing this you're not just unpacking your faith and unpacking your life experiences in private. You are leading a church.

Amy Ryan  19:46

Yup

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  19:46

Like that is not an easy position to be in to also be in leadership and trying to shift culture and unpack and I think that's what adds to the trauma in so many ways, and listen, there are many days on Like, I'm just gonna go hide under a rock. Yes. Do this by myself mean Jesus. But the fact that you're continuing to persevere in it like that's so admirable.

Amy Ryan  20:10

And I think it's like with your communities there is this feeling in you have how much do I show how in pain I am? Or how much do I share and how much you know. And I kind of I think I've even said this to Jonathan. I was like, I don't want all my sermons just like my drama, and like, my pain, and I'm like, Come on, guys. You know, I'm like, I need to get some like happy stuff. Find the... found balance. Oh, goodness.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  20:44

It's so hard. And then even when you speak about like, the some days, you're good, and some days you're not, I have days where I'm like, some days, certain worship songs are so triggering to me, because I'm like, theologically, this is a mess. And this was horrible in my life. And there's other days that I'm just like, I just need some nostalgia. I don't need to sit and listen to it and, like, weep under it and like, and I think that's like, there's going to be the back and forth. And there's going to be the liquid. Well, I want to also not only speak from my trauma, but also elicit hope and life.

Amy Ryan  21:16

Yes.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  21:17

Sometimes that's not where we're at. And this is like that mess, right? If like, we still want to, like, I don't know, I feel like I say this all the time. I'm like, people are like, how are you doing? Try and like, you know, it's been hard. But, but I'm seeing how but I'm like, What is this but, why does that always have to be there?

Amy Ryan  21:33

I know, right? That's even a thing that needs to be deconstructed.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  21:38

This need to have everything tied up in a nice, neat bow. My favorite part? Like I mean, there were so many beautiful parts of the conversation was he was quoting, oh, my goodness, I can't remember. But he was telling a story. And it was a story of a theologian who had kind of written like a fictitious story of somebody wrote

Jonathan Puddle  21:56

Dostoyevsky.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  21:57

Thank you,

Jonathan Puddle  21:58

Yeah and The Brothers Karamazov. Go on.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  22:01

Sorry. So that again.

Jonathan Puddle  22:02

The book is called The Brothers Karamazov.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  22:04

Okay, okay. And it was kind of talking about like, the person, the person in the story had fictitiously lecture, Jesus, this freedom was too vague, it was too big for the church to handle. And so the church had to then go and like, say yes to the temptations from the wilderness, and create its own structure and kind of given to the weight not given, but it had to create control and power, because that's how the rest of the world worked, right? And it reminded me of the Israelites when they God's like, you don't need a king, and they're like, We need a king, we need a king, do you not see how the rest of the world functions? And then God's like, Okay, well, you're not gonna like it. Here's your king. And how did things go? Right? Even? We've talked a lot about this, where so we are in leadership at church, we are in this quote, unquote, ministry world, and yet so aware of how broken the system of churches because I'm like, if I'm honest, like this is church, to me, this is as like sitting around and being present in each other's lives and having honest heart to heart conversations, and allowing Holy Spirit to move. And yet we still have made church into a power structure where there's still one person or two people in authority, it's still a very top down leadership, it's still want like, well, we're going to tell you how to think because we're going to share on Sundays how we should think and I'm not criticizing anybody, like I'm just like this, like, I'm part of this system, right. And even like Brad took talked about it like, this is like patriarchy when we tell people how to think and how to function, and the whole system is broken, and our churches are part of that system. And so that's the struggle, right. So if we're deconstructing and unpacking that, and how, like, that wasn't Jesus, Jesus wasn't telling people there was one way. I mean, he was the way but he was very, like, okay, so wherever you're at, like, let's come alongside and figure this out from where you're at, based on your trauma based on your story. I'm going to sit with you and be present with you. And our current structure doesn't lend to that. We can't do that. Even like you like you guys joke. Like, can you have a church of 1000 people? Is that really church? I don't know.

Jonathan Puddle  24:15

I was thinking of you and mark. For listeners who don't know, Tryphena's husband Mark, Lakeside is a larger church. Yes. Yeah, that was definitely in my mind.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  24:31

I love it. And I like and I struggle with it. Because I'm like, we definitely feel like we're here right now for a time and moment. And I feel so loved it is like our community. And I love our church I in this is not about our church. It's about like the entire structure, right? Like every time I hear, I was talking to someone recently, and they're like, Oh, those pew warmers and like those pew warmers You mean the people who have been hurt and need to just show up and receive like, isn't that a beautiful thing? But then in my head I'm like, why have we created a culture where you need to show up and receive, why'd you need to show up on a Sunday? Why do you need to like, be here? Why don't you have the freedom to just be at home napping like it? Wouldn't that also be helpful? Like just every part of it has levels of power and control and what we believe our faith needs to look like the fits in this little box that isn't as a musical talking about it like isn't allowing us to just actually be present with what Holy Spirit is doing in each of us right now.

Jonathan Puddle  25:26

I wrestle with this every single Sunday, that I turn up at church.

Jonathan Puddle  25:31

Yes.

Jonathan Puddle  25:32

And I sit there in my pew in second row, because that's the spot that has been adopted my family and I, we return there. And my life is really full, as you know, and full of a lot of up close, high contrast, pain. And oftentimes, in worship, I can't even stand. And there's three things that go through my head usually, one is, I remember that, Jonathan, that you still always be right up the front. So passionate, so engaged, and the worship leaders used to thank me for being there. And because they could feed off my energy. And so the first thing is on letting the worship leader down. The second thought is everybody looking, because I'm up here in the second row. And so everyone who's looking at me from behind is like, Man, this guy is on the leadership team. And he preaches, and he turns up, and he sits down. And that's all he can do. And we're all here standing up worshiping. And all he does is sit down and sometimes even pulls out his phone, and is on his phone. Now, let me just say that if I'm on my phone, it's because I'm tweeting some like hot revelation that I got in the moment sitting there. And typically, Adam is then being like, Whoa, that was amazing. I'm like, I got that in worship when I was sitting there looking like I was depressed. So that's a whole thing. And then like, the third thing is I'm like, maybe it's maybe it's my fault. Maybe I need to just push through Jonathan, maybe I need to force myself to stand up, even though I'm physically exhausted, and emotionally numb. And I just need to raise my hands and praise. And maybe that will break something open. And it's my own fault that I'm missing out on it. And like I wrestled through that every single time. And I'm like, how much of that is my ego? How much of that is like me fearing expectations of other people? Well, this Sunday, happened to be in a great space and really enjoyed worshiping and was on my feet pretty much the whole time. Except for the moment that the invitation, I guess, came forward for our whole church to come forward to the front, because I went to the bathroom because I was preaching and I was like, This is my window to pee. And when I come back, everybody of the church is at the front row, which I haven't seen in three years. And I'm like something happened while I was peeing. And I missed it. And all of my revival trauma flared up, and I was like, I missed the move of God. And then I thought, No, you're okay. I took myself off that cliff edge.

Amy Ryan  28:11

Oh, man. It's so true, though. All those voices, right? The pressures and the back and forth. It's crazy.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  28:20

It really, really is. No, I was like, I was like, I can just reiterate everything you said. And then I go to like, every thought, I'm like, well, I need to be helping create culture. So I need to be on my feet. And also worship is my warfare. So I need to be worrying in this moment. And also, like certain passages, that's how

Jonathan Puddle  28:37

I fight my battles, or is this not how.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  28:39

Exactly, or like there's There's pastors who are like, well, even if you're not feeling it, you're honoring of the presence is moving in the room. And so you're like, you're just acknowledging it. And so you're standing there with your arms up, and I'm like, I'm not doing that. Actually. I'm on the floor, rubbing a kid's back who's like, in their own distress, but secretly I'm okay with that. Because it allows me to hide behind that.

Amy Ryan  28:59

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  29:00

That's valid. Because it is not engaged with church worship.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  29:07

Oh, gosh. It's so complex, you know, on the floor with my kid is not like it's not acceptable. It's this it's, it really makes me very aware in these moments when we're taught as a circle back to deconstruction. Unpacking that sandwich. How much is in my sandwich? That is not Jesus because I'm like, now I'm worried about church culture. Now I'm worried about setting precedents now I'm worried about leadership. Now I'm worried about fighting battles. I'm worried about how I parent how I like all of these things. Doesn't come to under loving God and loving people and loving myself. Well, like if I was to look at those three things and look at the gospel. Like it's not there. But when we kind of go back to that unhealthy structure of control and power that we've had to put into place.

Amy Ryan  29:58

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  29:59

That's the stuff that's coming back to me. That's the stuff that I'm like, hey, well, I'm not actually like being a good leader. And that's control. And that's power. And I'm not, you know, I'm not fighting my battles, which, when did our faith become about us fighting our battles, and not being still and knowing that God is God? Right. Oh, no, that sounds like power to me.

Amy Ryan  30:23

I keep thinking about that idea of like, the wild freedom, yes, that Jesus gifts. And then like, the fear over here, of like, and all of the things that are placed on us, just like Jonathan, and you're saying, it's just like, I gotta do this, and this and this. And what if someone sees this, they'll think this and, and it's, it's so it's so crazy. And we put so many things in place that Jesus didn't tell us to put in place, but makes us feel comfortable, or it gives us a way forward? That feels clear, some extent, and it's so complicated, but it's just like, how do I move back to that wild freedom? How do I move back to that without feeling? I need to be this or I need to look like this. And and and that's a question. I've asked myself so much. I've never wanted to do church, just like the, you know, worship, MC, and speaker, and then some people want prayer, and then y'all go home, like I've always wanted to be like, how can we do this differently? How can we, you know, maximize every person here feeling seen and used and, and empowered? And just how can we do this differently? And it's been hard to find that and just an end, you people come in, and they want to a certain way, because they've always known that, like, it'a so hard.

Jonathan Puddle  31:48

That's it, right. That's this, like a thing of like the spiritual agoraphobia. Like, people don't know what to do with freedom. And I and I'm the first one on that list. Like, like, I don't know, what to do with a wide open field. All the possibilities. It's too much. Which is not a critique on. I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm so unfamiliar with this concept. Right. And so again, why do why so why do we do worship, MC and speaker and come up for prayer? Everybody who turns up is expecting that right? And then like, and who's the pastor oh Hello, Pastor? And are you his wife, Amy? pastor's wife, Amy. Amy's, like not more like he's my husband, go talk to the pastor's husband. He's standing over in the corner. And he'll be MCing and but it's like all those expectations, right? It's like, okay, and how do we join your church? And is there a membership process? And, you know, where's your statement of faith posted? And how can I make sure that I'm doctrinally aligned, and everyone knows the drill? Yes. I'm like, How can we just like prevent those people from coming to her?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  33:05

But the thing is, I'm the same, I say, I want to do it differently. I know, right? And we're used to system and structure and so we find safety in that as unhealthy as it is because then I go to follow someone new on Instagram, and I have to like read their bio, and I have to click their website and look like, Well, where are they aligned in terms of this and that and have they like, today, like spoken out about like, anti racism, because then I don't know I don't, and I'm like, Oh, my goodness, I am the problem. I'm like, I'm like the Taylor Swift song. I'm like, I'm, I'm the problem. I'm like, but it's like I we like, in our own ways perpetuate this where even in relationships, right? We're looking for people that fit into our box or align with us whether we intend to or not, even as a parent, I'm like, Who do I end up like having playdates with people whose parenting works with my parents? Right? So like, and we just naturally end up in these, even though I'm using the word naturally, right? Like, we just end up in these spaces where we are safer with people who align with how we think. And continue to perpetuate this problem with like, oh, we could just blow the whole system up and do something totally different.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  34:17

But that like, I actually, like, my brain doesn't know how to do that. I really so... I'm 34 And I realize I don't know how to create. I have for so long I have looked at instructions. I've looked at how to draw books, I've colored in coloring books, I have looked at Pinterest and like I can copy this idea. It's not until I've started to see like my five and seven year old, more so like my five year old just like shoot the shit with their art like really, it's like I'm just literally the other day she's like, I'm just drawing buttcheeks and like, zero cents, and they don't really look like much because I'm like, Oh, you can just create out of nothing like you don't have a box that you keep yourself in but As we grow up, we continue to like learn that Oh, like systems instructors are good. A nine to five job is good. A paycheck that comes like once every two weeks. That's good, because these are all safety things. And it's a lot of unlearning to back out of that, let alone within the church world and the faith community to be like, Oh, my God is bigger than that, like my faith doesn't need to have. This is for sure. Right. And this is for sure wrong. And this is for sure how I'm going to practice it because I'm going to read my Bible every morning. I'm going to fast once a week, I'm going to speak in tongues, I'm going to go to church, I'm going to like be part of a small group, because these are things that are going to make me good Christians right now. I'm on a soapbox, guys. This is when you said we were coming in hot.

Amy Ryan  34:17

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  35:47

So this has been on my mind again, and another another way, but I think it's what we're talking about. It's like, it comes back to it wasn't like it's like a through line here. Because the same with like generations of revival and one group not extending that capacity and grace to the next group. It's like, the only option is some kind of radically forgiving openness, right? Where, where we can get to say, okay, these things I'm not okay with in terms of like, you don't get to violate my body, you don't get to cause harm. But, but I'm still going to bless you to go and pursue the spirit, the way it needs to look for you. Right, I don't, I'm not going to demand that you come to the same things that I came to, yeah, you are still free. Like if the freedom is that big and radical, right? Like it kind of is fast to be free for everybody. And so there's this, this series of sci fi novels that I'm reading, and it's like nine books long. And for eight books, it's this group versus this group versus this group versus this group. And it's over and over and over. And it's, and they keep reiterating how this is all of human history. This is all we've ever done, and all we've ever known. And then the end of the eighth book, I don't know where this goes, because I haven't read the ninth book. So I can't even be too spoilery. But, but there's a group that's starting to intuit. Maybe there's another way, maybe the way we stop this cycle is not just bombing the oppressor is not just like, as they're kind of like a terrorist down there. They're there. They're really the freedom fighters that are rising against this, this tyrannical empire. But they're, but the leader is basically come to this point where she's realizing maybe we can, maybe it's right, that we take away their weapons, maybe we blow up their capacity to dominate us. But maybe we don't harm a single civilian. And maybe we say, starting tomorrow, you're old. But you're all welcome. In the new world that we're building together, like maybe it's amnesty, like maybe that's a word we can use here, like, like, what happened is not okay. But everyone is still welcome. And I don't know how to do that. But I feel like it's what also the spirit is calling me to when just last week I had somebody register for the seminars that I'm doing in Finland, and I was super thrilled because these are still early days to see people sign up. And then two days later, this person asked for a refund. And I said, Okay, I can totally do that. Just wondering if I could hear what your cancellation reasons are. And basically, this person was like, I'm not sure if you're teaching sound doctrine. And I don't know what this person knows about me. Could be nothing could be something could have heard rumors, I can't even speculate. But But I felt like I felt like I had a bunch of options, right? One, I can just refund this and move on. To I can refuse to refund it and be like, no, there are no refunds, your money is mine. Three, I can push back and like argue and defend and be like, Well, what is your issue? And I can defend it? I can prove I'm right. And I'm like, but isn't that power? Isn't that patriarchy? Isn't that all of these things? Or I can say hey, you should absolutely follow the spirit and discerning what you should be taught. And if the Spirit is leading you away from me, I want you to be faithful to that. And I don't know how like that is like new muscles that I'm not familiar with. And I'm not always sure that I'm doing it right. But I feel like there's something in there that says like, Okay, we're going to deconstruct our faith because we're going to tear down idols as spirit is calling us to freedom and we're going to move into that freedom and we're not going to hold back and we're not going to be afraid and we're not going to bow down to the leaders in our denomination that don't understand it and that are afraid and that are like poo pooing the things that we say and do. But we're also welcome to say, hey, like, we would like to remain in relationship with you. Some of you are our friends, some of you are our family members and mentors, we might even need to move on denominationally but that doesn't mean we hate you or want you to die or burn like, it just means we needed to find something that was life giving for us. But we really hope you're still finding something life giving for you.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  40:24

Yeah.

Amy Ryan  40:27

I think that's where it's, it's like, the world draws a line in the sand. And you're, you have to be in this camp or that camp. And it's just like, the way of the kingdom of God. Like, he's like, you're not taking sides here. And there, there isn't a left or a right. And sometimes I like how Brad Jersak said that, like, sometimes I look like I'm on the right. Or sometimes I look like I'm totally on the left. But I could be any of those things at a certain moment in time. But I don't want to be on either side. And I think that's really hit me too. It's like, I feel like the same. And when you're not completely on their side, or their side, they're like, You need to make a choice. You need to take the stand, you need to do these actions. And when you're like, No, I don't feel that I do and I feel you know, that I just want to love both parties, or just shut your mouth and not defend yourself. Walk away, bless them on their journey, even as they're attacking you just all those different things. It is so foreign, but it's and that's its own form of deconstruction of just like this is the way that Christ did it. This is not the way the world teaches or most of the church. Just like learning that, you know, I don't have to be left or right or have a firm position this way or this way. But I'm on this journey with the Spirit. And can we bless that right? Like you're saying and others. So go on that journey.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  42:03

I love how nuanced that is. Like that's so big. And it's first of all, Jonathan, good on you for finding a through line in all this conversation. Like, I It's so that's so expansive. And we talk about the love of God being big and expansive, that feels expansive to me, and that feels equitable and justice focused. Because even when you're talking about like, this person doesn't like feel like you're teaching is sound doctrine to them. At this time. If I had read, You Are Enough, 10 years ago, I was not in a place I was not healed up enough to have heard it. Now, that's not just me. Now, that is not to say that this I am more healed up than this person, I'm just in a different place in my healing. I'm just in different place. In my journey, I'm in a different place. Culturally, I think even how we take theology and thought, and it is very patriarchal, and it is very white, I think of psychology. So I've had a very hard time over the years finding a counselor, who is a person of color, who understands my family story and my family journey, and the immigrant journey. That's like, it's like, sorry, I'm like filtering what I'm going to say a little bit here. Because it also does speak to just personal journeys. But I also I think, there is a part where if you don't understand my story, and my family story, the advice you're going to give me is going to be very light, it's gonna be very patriarchal. How dare you allow someone do to do this to you? How dare you allow them to speak to you and like, you don't know their journey. You don't know their story. You don't know, the cultural nuances and inflections and the way theology has been taught, or colonization has been played out, and all of that. And so I think to say, hey, I want to bless you with where you are in your journey. And I'm not gonna say that one person is doing it right. And one church is going to do it right? Absolutely. Do we want to uphold the fact that everyone's body is safe? And you know that there are basic human needs being met? Absolutely. Do I have issues do I have, I have core things in my life, that are absolutely important to me, and I believe the Spirit has led me to those places. Can I be in a place where the Spirit is not honored? No. Can I be the place where women cannot serve or is not inclusive and equitable against race and diversity and sexuality? For me? Those are issues. Those are like those are cornerstones. However, I am learning to honor and respect the not everybody else is in that same place, and they still love Jesus. And Jesus loves them. And they're still made in the image of God. And I still have a lot to learn from them. And that is really, really hard.

Jonathan Puddle  44:52

And it's possible that that your lack of judgment for them, that your willingness to be open to them or to become open again to these people, it will be the very thing that will soften their hearts and open their eyes that the Spirit will use you. I mean, you that use language is so problematic. But you know, like it's complicated. I was just reading John Stackhouse, Canadian theologian and historian. He's got a book from some years back called finally feminist. And he's essentially, it's essentially like it's to a conservative, complementarian oriented audience. And he's laid out a case for egalitarianism to that group, okay. So this is not going to appeal to a group that is coming in liberal or progressive or whatever kinds of words you want to use. But one of his points in there is the Gospels. And this Scripture is very focused on the gospel on the good news of Jesus Christ. And so there are issues that they don't tackle. They don't tackle all of the equality issues of the day, at that time, because they are the thrust is the freedom that comes in Christ. Now that brings already a controversial level of freedom, right? Even like, obviously, what's happening all around Jesus the Sabbath, you're doing this on the Sabbath, you're doing that on the Sabbath, right for for Jesus to be like, Oh, also, no slaves, like, you know, we are meant to get to that point that is meant to happen. There's a trajectory in human culture, where we're meant to take the freedom of Christ and go okay, now let's apply it in this area. Now that's applied in this area. Now let's apply it in this area. But But what that means in all the decades and centuries in between is that there's going to be people like what you just said, Tryphena, trying to decide? How do I stand here in the fullness of my integrity, and what the Spirit is called me to and all the freedom that I have, and that I need now to maintain safety because that's wild. Okay. Segue, our foster daughter is like, our social services essentially said to us, you have established such a level of care and safety in your home for her that any move will be traumatic now. And so what that means for you, Tryphena, and for me, is like now that we're sitting in these spaces that we're where we feel safe, where we need it in our integrity to support inclusion, on sexuality, and gender, and race and all these different things, it becomes traumatizing to have that taken away.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  47:46

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  47:47

So okay, we can sit there. But how can we then say, okay, but I can still appear on this podcast with this individual who doesn't have this perspective? Can i Is that safe, I have to evaluate that I guess, case by case, but maybe I can be all things to all people that I might save some. Awesome.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  48:07

And you and I had this conversation, even recently, Jonathan of just sometimes showing up in our integrity in our safety means that we don't have to show up as all of ourselves. And we're probably using the wrong language around this, but just the idea of like, I can go into a conversation with friends, and it does not need to be a robust sociological conversation, we can sit and shoot the shit and that is okay, I don't need to bring that side of Tryphena into this conversation in this moment. I don't need it. And there's, there's beauty in that. And I think that's actually part of our freedom. That not that we are you know, switching and passing who we are and our personnel and, you know, in our in our belief systems, but that actually, we get to choose, like, my husband will hear all of my opinions. He knows all of my thoughts Much to his chagrin, he gets calls in the middle of the day. Not everyone's gonna get that no one's going to know how someone hurt me on the regular. If I don't like that, that's that's what Mark gets for me. Right and I think there's a beauty and there's a safety in that and but also I can go into places and still love as Tryphena and love holy and even if we don't agree on everything because really Who are we going to agree on everything with like, that doesn't matter.

Amy Ryan  49:30

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  49:32

That's not honest. either. That's as really trying to fit back into a box and into a mold.

Jonathan Puddle  49:38

Yeah, that's a return to control.

Amy Ryan  49:44

Yeah, and I think it's like such learning the wisdom of when to engage and when not to engage with so much of this deconstruction, so much of you know, feel putting feelers out sometimes in those conversations and stuff and but also it's like, how do I be present as myself? How do I, and I've, I'm an extremely vulnerable open person. And so it's been interesting in this journey, feeling like sometimes you're hit with a brick in the chest or whatever, wanting to be your totally authentic self, but not been accepted as your totally authentic self. And so trying to navigate that, and learning, yeah, how am I gonna gauge how much of myself am I going to engage? And how much do I just have to hold on the inside just because it isn't safe. And that's, that's really hard, but also having that love for everyone and learning to understand their journey and where they're at. And that's just, it's a beautiful, hard thing.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  50:50

I completely get that. I've been realizing that though. I am so used to policing my policing is the wrong word. But my, my worth based on other people's opinions of me, so I'm not saying this about you Amy I'm saying this about me, where I overshare about my life, because I need someone else to affirm that this is actually really bad, or this is actually really hard, or this is actually really good. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, like, part of my vulnerability is my seeking affirmation. Versus I'm like, I can.

Jonathan Puddle  51:25

Can you stop this conversation right now and change Topics Tryphena.

Amy Ryan  51:30

It's too real. It's too real

Jonathan Puddle  51:32

I've had enough.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  51:36

This is the problem, though, when we all talk though, right? Because it's like our, um, like, I see. Like, we I don't know, you guys talk and I'm like crap. This is very much calling me out on all of my stuff.

Jonathan Puddle  51:50

I'm still feeling cold out about the way that I triage everyone. I choose to follow on Instagram. Put it on the mic.

Jonathan Puddle  51:58

Yeah. Oh man.

Jonathan Puddle  52:01

I'm sorry. I cut you off, though. Like you were saying.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  52:03

I don't even know. I was just, I don't know what I was saying. It's okay. It's, it's just really hard. And having this level of freedom is really hard and offering it to others. And having space and grace for others is really hard. And we were having this conversation offline, even before about parenting, and what does it look like to have freedom for our kids? And what is like our kids having needs? And what is our kids being manipulative and needing to be like, you know, quote, unquote, disciplined and like, what that heck? Like? It's.

Jonathan Puddle  52:38

And will they learn the lesson that this is the way that they get what they need that if they scream at the top of their lungs, like, and so am I setting them up for failure?

Amy Ryan  52:46

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  52:48

Versus Are we just honoring the freedom for how they're learning to communicate, and set boundaries for their own bodies. And if I'm honest, I want to walk around the world screaming at the top of my lungs a lot. And maybe I should be and maybe that's like, me fitting into systems instructors, by not screaming because I'm trying to be the good Christian woman. Okay, now we're on a whole other conversation I got to just write in and someone else talk. I'm like where am I going.

Amy Ryan  53:19

All those pressures just constant, like there, there's a million things that you should be doing or shouldn't be doing. And then there's everything in between and figuring it all out.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  53:29

Yeah.

Amy Ryan  53:31

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  53:32

But I think that's so honest and realistic like that. I think the fact is that deconstruction is not just this faith thing that's happening, like, I think you'll see, let's be clear with our language, there is clearly a movement happening within the evangelical post Evangelical, America centric church. It is not strictly an American experience, obviously. But but it seems like the backdraft that was inevitable, because of this kind of major media, evangelical push, like post beleaguered like, like this is almost like the reverb from the Billy Graham movement. I feel like that ultimately, we all had to sit down and go, maybe, maybe faith runs deeper than putting my hand up at us at a crusade one time. And maybe all of the things that then developed as a result of that, no, it's no shade on Billy Graham or anyone else isn't sincerity. Maybe all these other things that developed we need to now evaluate right. And so yeah, that's clearly a movement that's happening within. And I think, as Brad and I was hinted at, and I've said publicly, I think it's absolutely moved with the Spirit. And I'm willing to say I think it's the most significant move of the Spirit since the Charismatic Renewal. Also, this process is something that's just always gotta be happening in our own lives in our heads. arts, in our minds, the decolonizing aspect of that, the understanding privilege and social location. Even just down to the mystical level of like, how much of what I do is just my ego striving for pleasure and safety in a self centric way. Pleasure and safety are not bad things. But the ego tells me, I, I'm the only possible source of wisdom regarding pleasure and safety. That's where the ego gets us in trouble. And so it's like, well, that's okay, that's happening with my children. So I'm deconstructing at night with my daughter trying to figure out is this just that I'm tired? Am I just being bitchy? Or is this actually a need an unmet need? That needs to be like, What is this moment by moment, Holy Spirit help me, oh God have mercy.

Amy Ryan  56:02

One thing I've found in this journey that's been so beautiful that's come out of it is like, the compassion. And like, like, when you haven't been given compassion, or you've gone through all of this, you're able to now sit with people in their different journeys, and their many different experiences and traumas. And just really sit with them, and hold that compassion and hold that that pain with them in such a deeper, beautiful, more profound way. And I found that is one of the greatest things that has come out of just learning that God is so much more loving than I ever imagined. And Jesus gives so much more freedom, and, and all of these things that I've built up the art of him, and I'm having to let go of, which is painful, because it's been a part of my life, since the get go. But as I've done that painful work, I've been able to then hold so much more compassion for people who have walked away, for people who are, are in their own very painful journey with with God and not feeling like he's even safe and just holding that space with them, and sending with them and not having to fix everything, as well. I think a lot of Christians, we just try to fix each other and just use Christianese, or Christian words to just be like, Well, God can do all things. You know, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So just buck up, you got this, you know, and just instead of sitting with people and like, not having the answers, and just holding that compassion, that's one of the things I've been most thankful for. that's come out of me in this journey.

Jonathan Puddle  57:46

So good.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  57:48

I love that so much. I think that that's really the biggest gift you can offer somebody is to actually just sit in their pain with them and not not try.

Amy Ryan  57:56

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  57:57

And have to fix it.

Amy Ryan  57:59

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  57:59

Thanks. But the instinct to fix even in myself is so high, right? I'm in discomfort. This must be solved immediately. Watch what possible options do I have out of this right now?

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  58:12

Yeah.

Jonathan Puddle  58:13

And so to sit with someone, right? And not fix is like a tacit admission that like, it's okay to hurt. Yeah, there's actually not a problem here. Beyond this, the obviously the injustice of suffering and trauma.

Amy Ryan  58:30

I find my my most the word that I use a lot now is like, yeah, that's not okay. That's not so sorry, rubbing their back. And that's about it, you know, a lot of the time and just being led by the Spirit, when there is a time to speak into it. But a lot of times, it's just holding compassion with them.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  58:47

I actually think like, that practice in itself, is as like decolonizing our faith, I think we're actually returning to a more holistic, like, Garden of Eden way of living and in viewing each other I think it's all about but like, this is like a Tryphena moment, okay? So I think of even like our scientific revolution, or an industrial revolution, where everything became systematized and everything became. So it needs to have a solution that needs to have a like a reason and a purpose. And we don't just post you know, the wars, we're not just frivolous with our money, everything is useful. And so then our theology and our thought and our way of doing things was everything has to be useful and productive. We are part of like a very agricultural space where everything needs to be productive, even our parenting, right, even the way we're raised. Something is wrong with you. Hey, it's okay to not like it. It's not like oh, it's okay. It's alright. It's not what you're doing. Amy, where you're sitting and rubbing someone's back and you're like, wow, that's really not okay. It's like, oh, shoot, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. We like it's like, we don't sit with discomfort. Everything has to be useful if there is discomfort. Right, that's because we're being used by God, because our busier is going to be our ministry. And it's going to be turned around.

Jonathan Puddle  1:00:08

Why do they all ryhme. why do they all have alliteration.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  1:00:11

Oh, but it's like, there is no space for just sitting in the match. There is no space. Yeah, or sitting in like tropical countries where you know what, it's too hot. And I'm just gonna go take a damn nap in the middle of the day. Because that actually, is the healthy thing for me to do. And I and you know what, we can just sit around and have tea in the middle of the afternoon. And we're just going to be together, we don't need to be solving the world and creating systems and structures for everything. You know what I mean? And I feel like that is what we have done. And so you actually stepping back and being like, you know what, that really sucks.

Amy Ryan  1:00:48

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  1:00:48

And that's horrible. But I'm not going to try and fix it, we're just going to sit in this together. And if you need me to walk alongside you in it, and that's beautiful. But I don't need to create a system for you. I don't need to be your accountability partner. I don't know that they these things are not beautiful and healthy in some ways. But you are giving them agency in their healing. The power of like psychology and having a therapist is not just their therapist is going to tell you what to do. They're going to mirror back to you what's happening in you. And they're going to give you space to figure that out.  Which what is what you're doing, you're mirroring back to them, like God in them, the Imago Dei in them and that, like that is so powerful.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  1:01:32

Yeah.

Tryphena Perumalla-Gagnon  1:01:32

And there's nuance in that. There's space for to look differently in different people.

Amy Ryan  1:01:39

So true.

Jonathan Puddle  1:01:40

So good.

Amy Ryan  1:01:41

I loved the quote, If Jesus is the center, and this is the table, or this is his table, who's invited everyone that made me weep again, just I think that's another thing. It's just like, the welcome. Jesus wants to deconstruct in us to get to that place of just welcoming everyone to this table. And I think that's at the end of the day, that's the biggest thing is he wants to bring us all from like Brad said, alienation into a form of communion. And, well, we I think that's what he's doing with his church in this deconstruction movement. Will we be a people that will let go of our rightness and all of these things and sit with people in their stories and listen, and create a table or a place where it's just like all are welcome to Jesus's table.

Jonathan Puddle  1:02:44

Amen.