#110: Facing depression with saints from the past (with Diana Gruver)
“Love, kindness, humility, and even joy can grow in the dark. We may not see them or feel them but that does not mean they’re not there. Depression does not halt our growth in godliness.”
This week on The Puddcast we talk all about depression. Diana Gruver, author of the wonderful book, Companions in the Darkness: Seven Saints Who Struggled with Depression and Doubt, shares her own story with depression, and the fellowship we can find with notable Christians who have struggled just like us. Whether you suffer from clinical depression, periodic bouts of depression or you just know someone who does, there’s hope and practical advice in here for you.
Order Companions in the Darkness: Seven Saints Who Struggled with Depression and Doubt, by Diana Gruver.
Visit Diana online at dianagruver.com
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Become a supporter of the show on Patreon at patreon.com/jonathanpuddle.
Order my trauma-informed 30-day devotional, You Are Enough: Learning to Love Yourself the Way God Loves You.
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Once you’ve listened to this, make sure to check out the raw and uncut B-Side interview where my friends and I unpack the conversation in even more detail. Available exclusively on Patreon.
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Transcription
Jonathan Puddle 00:03
Hey friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan Puddle. This is Episode 110. There's new intro music for you, hope you enjoy it, you'll get to listen to the full song at the end as usual. My guest today is Diana Gruver. Diana reached out to me a few months back, she has got a book out came out last year called Companions in the Darkness: Seven Saints Who Struggled with Depression and Doubt. And she said, Jonathan, I just think this might be of interest to you. And, and I have loved it, you'll hear me brag about it on air, but I really, really enjoyed it. I highly recommend it. Honestly, if you have any measure of connection with depression in your own life or in the lives of others, I would highly recommend it. I am frequently asked for books on depression or for resources for Christians struggling with depression. And this is going to be my, my go to from now on. It covers a whole bunch of great things, including some of the medicines, some of the science, but really, it's rooted in stories of faithful Christians in the past, who also struggled with depression and with doubts about their spiritual life and about God's closeness. And with those people, we can find companionship for our own journeys. So I'm thrilled to introduce you all today to Diana Gruver. Diana, I am so excited to welcome you to the show today. Your book came to me at just such a wonderful, timely moment. And it has been a joy. I laid in bed finishing reading it this morning. So thank you for writing it. Thank you for joining me today. Welcome to The Puddcast.
Diana Gruver 01:48
Oh, thanks for having me, Jonathan. It's really good to be with you today.
Jonathan Puddle 01:52
I was on lockdown isolation because my daughter had COVID, when I really properly picked up your book. You know, you had gifted it to me, I want to acknowledge that. Thank you! You said, Hey, I think this book might be like of interest. And not only did you send me a book, but a candle, and a whole little package. And it was wonderful. But it sat on my bookshelf. Because, you know, I don't know if you experienced this, but there's times where I get a book or something. And I'm like, I just don't feel like reading that right now. Or it's just... it doesn't click for whatever reason. And then mysteriously through the work of life and of God, you pick it up at the exact moment that you needed it... even though it's been on your shelf gathering dust for six months. And so my daughter got COVID, we're locked down, we can't leave our property, and Jonathan Puddle did not do well. With that. It was very, very bleak and very dark for me. And I picked up your book out of guilt.
Diana Gruver 03:00
What a great reason to pick up a book about depression,
Jonathan Puddle 03:03
Literally the truth. I'm just being very candid. And I loved it. from the get go. It was just what I needed. It was so hope filled. For me, depression has always been circumstantial. And that... obviously that's in some senses like an oxymoron with depression because it's often categorically un-circumstantial sadness. But all that's to say I have I have battled with depression seasonally, for five or 10 years. And it's never been chronic for me. And so let me just get that out there. My father has had clinical depression for 20 plus years. So I've had very close access to that. I see what that's like, when you defined like clinic like chronic depression, clinical depression, it was really helpful for me even to be like, okay, yes, Jonathan does not suffer from that. I am in the category of more circumstantial, more seasonal, it comes and it goes. So even just that classification was so life giving for me. But I was in one of those really dark stages. And I had times during that isolation, where it was possibly the worst depression I've ever had. Just agonizing, just deep gut-wrenching pain of soul, the lack of sleep. And then and then, for me flipping to the anxiety, anxiety so bad one day, I had to go take a bath just to put myself back into my body, only to an hour later be at the absolute depths, and unable to sleep. Just like... sweet Jesus help me or kill me, either one. So but but these, this book and the way you've written these stories, these biographical elements of these beautiful men and women of God of the past and how they suffered and how they faithfully journeyed on was such a gift to me right when I needed it. So thank you so much.
Diana Gruver 05:05
Oh, thank you. That's so encouraging to me. You know, you write in isolation. And as I mentioned in the book, part of the reason for writing, it came out of my own experience, but then to put it out in the world and hear stories of how God's using it, and how it's encouraging people, it's an encouragement to me. So thanks.
Jonathan Puddle 05:24
I would love to hear more of your story, maybe put us into the picture and who you are, where you've come from what? And incidentally, you're a brilliant writer.
Diana Gruver 05:35
Thank you.
Jonathan Puddle 05:36
I've just really loved your prose. So, bravo.
Diana Gruver 05:39
Well, thanks. Thank you. Yeah, so I live in Pennsylvania with my husband and toddler age daughter. I write part time, and I mom the rest of the time, and we live close to family now. And it's a gift to be able to share life with with them and share our daughter with them. But as to my own story with depression, it wasn't something that I would have expected myself to struggle with. I think growing up, I was usually pretty optimistic. I had a great childhood, really supportive parents. But when I was in college, it came. And I think the most disorienting part of that, for me was that I didn't have a specific event that I could tie it to. So it felt kind of illogical, really, that I would just be engulfed in such a deep sense of darkness. I might, I wasn't diagnosed until my senior year of college, but I think it started before then, it wasn't as bad. And so I would always shrug it off as, "Well, I'm in a funk", you know, I'm crying more than normal, things are a little gloomy. And then over time, it would pass. But then that senior year, it got bad enough and debilitating enough that I had to face it for what it was. And thankfully, our college had a counseling center. And so I was able to see a counselor for several months and was able to get on medication, which was really helpful for me. And then it reoccurred again, about a year and a half later, when I was living abroad, I worked at a group foster home. So being in a different situation and removed from my normal support network and some of the secondary trauma that comes with with that work in that environment, I probably should have expected it. But I was young, I didn't know. And I did it. And so it came again. And it was again, something that I had to wrestle through. Since then, it's not been quite as as deep as it was in those seasons. But you know, it's still a part of my story. And it's still something I know I need to be really aware of. And so in in some hard seasons of life since then, including the last year I think you're not alone in in that experience of there's so many of us struggling during the season with the pandemic and the isolation that comes with it and the uncertainty that comes with it. And just knowing that I really need to keep a good finger on how am I doing? When do I need to get help? You know, what, what do I need to put into my, the rhythms of my life or the relationships in my life to make sure that I'm trying to stay in the best place that I possibly can?
Jonathan Puddle 08:36
Yes, yes, that is the nail on the head. I have, I have had some days recently where it's been like, okay, I can feel that I'm sliding. And my children will get home from school in about four hours, and then I will feel this familiar feeling of entrapment. And of, "everyone has needs, and I'm not enough to meet them". So what do I need to do between now and then, you know, what do I need to eat? What exercise do I need to do? If I'm going to watch some TV, maybe it needs to be funny and not brooding sci-fi. And, you know, that level of intentionality, of practices of rhythms is so real. And yet, as anyone who suffers from depression, like we know, like, that's the hardest thing.
Diana Gruver 09:29
Absolutely. Yeah. And even to admit, ooh, this is where I am right now, I'm crying more than I should be. You know, there, there are too many days where that's happening. There are too many days where it just takes a little bit too much energy to get out of bed, you know, a little too much and it's too overwhelming. Some of these normal everyday tasks are just a little too overwhelming than they should be. And so I think the first thing for me is acknowledging, oh, that is there. This is what I'm feeling and and that means that I'm you know, feeling kind of that tug of depression. So what do I need to do to try to take care of myself?
Jonathan Puddle 10:05
Yes, yes. How do you... have you, have you... Is there a self compassionate piece in there for you? Because I know for me for many years, the question of, oh, why am I feeling this way? And I would very quickly beat myself up.
Diana Gruver 10:22
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think part of that comes from, this is not because I'm not strong enough, it's not because I don't have enough faith or enough willpower. It's not a personal reflection on my character, or my ability to do life. And, and I think that's something that I've really had to learn. And frankly, the the stories in this book have been helpful for me, because you know, if these giants of the faith have felt these things that I'm feeling, it gives me a little bit of freedom to feel them too. And to know that, yeah, it doesn't mean I'm weak, it doesn't mean that that will be the end of the story. It just means it's where I am. And in order to be faithful to care for the body that God has given me and to live faithfully in the story that he's placed me in. There are some things I need to do to make sure that I stay healthy, not just physically, but also in my mental, emotional life as well.
Jonathan Puddle 11:23
Yes, you grabbed my attention. Okay. So, backtrack, the book is called Companions in the Darkness: Seven Saints Who Struggled with Depression and Doubt. And so you've got these biographies of these amazing people, some of whom, you know, I've read loads on, I feel like I knew them inside and out. And yet, all of a sudden, you revealed all these aspects of folks. Like Spurgeon, you know, it's kind of I think, pretty well known that he had a lot of dark, you know, patches in his life. But Mother Teresa, I did not know that stuff. And that was devastating. I read some of her quotes out to my wife. And my wife was like, "Oh my God. This is horrible!" So you, but you write in your introduction, which just tickled me. "Can you imagine the audacity of [basically accusing people of being a bad Christian], to the brothers and sisters in this book of telling Charles Spurgeon to read his Bible more, or David Brainerd to pray more, or telling Mother Teresa to just choose joy?" I'm like, "Oh, dang." And then you wrote, "The faithfulness of their lives did not make them immune. And it will not make me immune." And I underlined it, and that was one of those like, Jonathan, this is not a reflection on your faithfulness.
Diana Gruver 12:48
Yep.
Jonathan Puddle 12:49
This is not a reflection on your worth.
Diana Gruver 12:52
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you mentioned Charles Spurgeon, he gave this lecture to his students at one point that was preparing them they're they're pastors in training, preparing them for it if or when depression showed up in their life. And his big takeaways for them, I think, are really applicable for all of us. And they were don't think that something strange is happening to you if you have this experience. And don't think that all is over with your usefulness. And I think if we in, in just generally, but especially in Christian community can have that kind of attitude towards depression, where we don't lead with the accusations, you know, that you mentioned in that quote about, we just need to have more faith, we just need to choose joy. We just need to read our Bibles more, and it'll all go away. So if you're struggling, maybe you're just not keeping up with those things quite the way that you should be.
Jonathan Puddle 13:47
Is there some secret sin you haven't confessed?
Diana Gruver 13:49
Exactly, yeah. But if we can approach it with a little more matter of factness that, sometimes this happens, we don't need to add more guilt or more angst or more of that, you know, kind of tumultuous introspection when someone's struggling with depression. And we can also have the hope that that doesn't mean that their usefulness is over. It doesn't mean that God can't use you. It doesn't mean that God isn't using you or he isn't with you. It's just something some of us have to walk through.
Jonathan Puddle 14:21
Yeah, yeah, that's so good. So why this approach? What what drove you, inspired you to bi... biographize? bi... to write biographies? How does what is there a verb about to biograph? Is that the verb?
Diana Gruver 14:36
I don't know. Now that you're asking it this way, I can't even think what it what would it be? Biographize. That sounds good. Let's go with that.
Jonathan Puddle 14:46
Why did you do it this way and pick these particular people.
Diana Gruver 14:51
So I didn't know these stories when I was that depressed college student and I wish that I had. And you know, I can't help but think what my experience would have been like if I'd known them in that season. It wasn't until several years later, I was in seminary and I studied spiritual formation. But the the program was very heavily weighted in church history. And so I started to notice some of these stories pop up. And I think in part because I had had this experience with depression, it was still fairly fresh in my mind and my memory. I noticed them. And I was, I was drawn to them, it piqued my curiosity. And for some of them, I mean, the first two that I remember noticing, are... were Luther, and Spurgeon. I thought, why have I never heard this part of their story before, you know? It has such a gift to offer us of hope, and just the wisdom that they have to share with someone who's walked through this. So I started looking into a couple of them a bit more. And then over time, just was thinking about, you know, not only for myself, I wanted to know their stories, I wanted to hear their wisdom. But there were other depressed college students like me out there that maybe I could offer them those stories, the depressed moms and the depressed dads and the depressed grandparents, and, you know, the depressed young professionals, they're all there. And they need those stories, too. And so it... to be able to capture their stories in a way that offered companionship. And I think one of the biggest things when we're depressed is we need to know that we're not alone in that. And so if I could offer a bit of that companionship to people, not just through my story, but through people that we still look to, and celebrate and hold up from history, who have struggled much like we have, I think that offers a great amount of hope. And it does, as we've been talking about it, it really starts to unravel a lot of the stigma that comes with depression, and frees us up to just say, Okay, this is where I am, how do I survive? And I think their story is all for us, both of those things, you know, they undermine the stigma. And in addition to pursuing a lot of the important things we need to do with getting mental health get connected with good mental health care, and some of the more practical day to day things. Okay, how do I survive this? How do I keep going? And we have these brothers and sisters that can share their wisdom with us.
Jonathan Puddle 17:31
Yeah. I actually, I think I cried a few tears in the chapter on on Luther. And it came home to me again, just this morning reading the ML, the chapter on MLK. Partly because when I was... when we were in lockdown, and I was reading the book, you know, a month or so back, we were in a pretty difficult spot with some kind of church leadership, politic matters. And the accusations that were leveled against Luther, "Why are you being so divisive? No good will come up this." Word for word accusations that had recently been leveled against me. And there was a great sense of companionship and hope and peace, that came to hear Martin Luther accused of these things, and to hear the way that... to consider the way that you would self-doubt, that you would be frustrated, that those words take a toll.
Diana Gruver 18:35
They do.
Jonathan Puddle 18:36
And certainly, you see that in MLK's life, right? That those words have a real cost. And so a woundedness of spirit is not odd, is not is not in any way incongruous with your experience of life. And that as you hoped to do, it did bring me great comfort. And I felt the companionship, even in a mystical sense, right, of the fellowship of the saints that have gone before us, the believers, however that works in a spiritual and metaphysical way. I felt a sense of oneness with Martin Luther and with these countless other brothers and sisters, and an encouragement to keep going. And that was what I needed.
Diana Gruver 19:30
Yeah, I end the book with a little story from Pilgrim's Progress that Charles Spurgeon spoke about once and there's this moment where they're crossing a river and Christian feels like it's sink... he's sinking. And his friend yells ahead of him, you know, "The water is deep, but the bottom is good!" And Spurgeon talks about how Christ offers us that comfort, but other people around us also offer that us that comfort, and I couldn't help but think of that story. And the way that he applied it as I kept reading the stories and studying the stories in this book, I think all of them do that for us. They say, yes, the water is deep, this is not fun, this is hard. And the words of other people wound your soul, and depression wounds your soul. And all of this is heavy stuff. But the bottom is good, there is a bottom there that will allow you to keep standing. And they can offer that to us. They've offered that to me. And I think the beautiful thing that is that as we wrestle through our own stories, and and come to some level of acceptance of, "This is where I am, this is where I've walked. This is how God has carried me through," we can offer that to other people, as well. And so, yeah, I hope that people who read this have a sense of companionship, they know they're not alone, they have that, that hope in the camaraderie of people who have walked that road before them. But I also hope that they're encouraged to share their own story, you know, because you and I can be companions too. And we need that just as much as we need the stories from history.
Jonathan Puddle 21:17
Yes. Was there a particular one of these seven folks who you identified more with or who you have a particular soft spot for?
Diana Gruver 21:25
I have a real, Oh, man, I have a soft spot for William Cowper, which I think is a little ironic, because out of all the stories in this book, I think his is the saddest to me. He was a hymn writer and a poet in 18th century England, really good friends with John Newton, who people may know as the man who wrote Amazing Grace. And John Newton actually was the one who recruited Cowper to write hymns with him, in part to try to help alleviate his depression in in milder forms. But he struggled chronically with depression throughout his life. And it included some more psychotic elements, which eventually convinced him that he was outside of God's grace and would never be saved. And, and that sort of despair that came with his depression, I think is why his story is particularly sad, particularly heavy. But you know, in spite of that, he had such a warmth to him, I was able to get a volume of his letters, and I just couldn't put it down. Just the way that his personality jumped from the page, he would write these little poems as thank you notes to his friends, and he talked about going for walks in the English countryside and about the antics of his pets. And, you know, in spite of his depression, he's just still had this, this warmth to him and the way that he engaged the world. He loved to garden. And then also, as a writer, seeing how writing gave him a way through depression. He once said that writing poetry was his best remedy. And, obviously, there were seasons where his depression was so deep, he couldn't, he couldn't work, he couldn't do anything. But as he could, he wrote, and there was something in that, that I think the, you know, the, the generative groundedness for him of writing poetry, brought him some comfort and gave him something that he could pour himself into that was purposeful and fulfilling. And as a writer, I relate to that, you know, I ironically enough, I've said to people that I think at various points, writing this book about depression has kept me from deeper seasons of depression, not only because I've had the companionship of these people, and I've been able to put some of their wisdom into practice, but, but that generative work that I could pour myself into that felt purposeful, was really helpful for me. And, again, it's not a cure all, but I really relate to that part of his experience. And yeah, he's he's a gem that William Cowper.
Jonathan Puddle 24:13
Yeah, I definitely, I put myself into the English countryside, partly because of your descriptive writing. And, and yeah, I definitely craved a little English country cottage, and some hens. One of the things that you that you write here, this is on in Hannah Allen's story, which I which I'm so glad you included because she's not famous, and it's not like a well-known person, but it's just like, again, kind of a sad figure. But there is hope in it. I was so glad for that. I was like, oh, man, this this is bleak. Until it's not. Praise God.
Diana Gruver 24:52
Yes. Praise God.
Jonathan Puddle 24:54
Isn't that all in our lives?
Diana Gruver 24:55
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 24:55
If we're honest. So you I really I love the way you balance a bunch of these things. And you wrote here, "Depression is a spiritual issue in the sense that everything in our lives is a spiritual issue, our habits, our thoughts, even the minute list of decisions. But we cannot classify depression as a solely spiritual issue with solely spiritual causes, and a solely spiritual cure." I thought that is that is a really great, is really great non-dual thought. But it's, it's also really, really holistic. You've written elsewhere in there, I wonder if you'd maybe give us a little bit of your thinking on this, since the synthesis of the spiritual, the physical, mental, how depression works, as you understand it in a few different ways.
Diana Gruver 25:49
I'm so glad you read that quote. Because I think it seems like you know, I heard somebody say that we have a tendency as humans, we're trying to stay on the road in the middle, and there's a ditch on either side. And it's so hard to stay in the middle, we really like to land in one ditch or the other. And so in the case of depression, the one ditch, of course, that we've talked about, is people who make it into a completely spiritual thing, you know. Depression, they would say, as a spiritual failing, and it will be fixed by some spiritual remedy, whatever, whatever their theological bent, or their experience would tell you that it's going to look like. But there's a ditch on the other side, too, I think that says, depression has nothing to do with your spiritual life. And it's a it's a very understandable swing, but I think it's also a ditch. And I think the middle road says, we can't blame depression on a spiritual failing, we can't say that some sort of appropriate spiritual discipline regimen, or exorcism, or whatever is going to cure it. But if all of our life matters to God, if our physical life matters to God, our spirit, our spiritual life, and I don't even like putting that in a category, you know, because I don't feel like there's this huge separation of these segments of our life, like we talked about them. All of this is a means of worship, all of it is a means of service. And all of it is a means of engaging in, in this good world, and, and this good life that God has gifted us. And so he cares about depression, just like he cares about our exercise habits, or you know, our relationships with people. And all of those are opportunities for him to enter in and be a part of that story and that experience. So when I think about depression, I really, I think it's helpful for me to think about it in terms of how I would talk about other physical illnesses. So let's take cancer, for example. Or diabetes, I mean, you can choose your your physical illness of choice. But we would never say that's a spiritual issue in the sense that, "Oh, you're sick, so you must have unconfessed sin." But we certainly believe that it can be a place that God can enter into, we certainly believe that, you know, our faith, or some of these spiritual practices would provide comfort or provide some, maybe a little bit of stable footing to help us through, we would certainly believe that the community of the church would surround us and support us through that. But that doesn't mean we don't see a doctor, it doesn't mean that we separate that into all of these segments, right. And so with depression, I, you know, I think that, that seeking out the care available to us through therapy, through medication is really valuable. I think it can be a faithful part of discipleship and saying, I want to care for myself, because I believe that God has a purpose for me, and I believe he, he wants to work in my life and work through my life. And so I need to be as well as I can be, you know, use those tools at my disposal to stay in that place, you know. And for some of us, that might mean that we experience, you know, relief from depression. Some of us it might not, and that's not a poor reflection on us. It's just like with cancer, some of us get healing, and some of us don't, and we have to wrestle through the implications of that. But, you know, in the midst of that treatment, we also say, you know, as a Christian, I believe that God can be here with me in this and as a Christian I believe that somehow there's a way to pray in the midst of this. As a Christian I believe that there's hope provided to me through the message of the gospel and God's intention and work to redeem all things.
Jonathan Puddle 29:51
We will take a quick pause so I can thank my patrons. A big shout out to everybody who supports the show monthly or annually on patreon.com. My latest patron is Sanda. Thank you, Sanda! So glad to have you. Friends, if you love the show, then would you consider supporting it? You can do so for $3 a month or $30 a year. There are higher tiers available if you'd like to give more. If you do become a supporter, you'll gain access to the B-Sides. Every week I record a behind the scenes conversation about the latest episode. Those discussions often go in greater depth and provide a chance to hear how the topic has been percolating in my heart as well as the heart of my guest. So there's a wonderful B-Side for this episode with my friend, Robert Vore, who hosts the CXMH podcast, Christian mental health podcast. So if you want to become a patron head to patreon.com/JonathanPuddle or hit the link in the show notes. Back to the show.
Diana Gruver 30:50
And so I think that if we can think about depression in that sense, okay, how would I how would I handle this myself or with someone else if they had a chronic health condition? Or an acute, you know, an acute health condition? And how can I draw some parallels here? Because it doesn't, it doesn't need to be this hugely different experience, you know. We have skills as I hope that we have skills as a Christian community, and as individual believers to know how to navigate some of these crises, and depression is no different. And I think we can can find a lot of freedom and also a lot of clarity, when we can help our minds learn to think about it in that sense.
Jonathan Puddle 31:41
Yes, that's so good. That's a really helpful rubric. Yesterday, I had a lot of back pain, partly because I had changed my tires the day before, and have been living a very sedentary lifestyle for the last six months, which is partly because of winter in Canada. Anyway, yesterday, I had back pain, really severe back pain. And so I asked my children to pray for me that God would heal my back pain. I also had my wife rub essential oils on my back. I also took it easy. I also lay in a bath for a while filled with Epsom salts. And as the day progressed, I felt myself less debilitated. And I felt a sense of gratefulness to everybody around me for the ways that they had all attempted to care for me and myself. And I felt a sense of peace with the Lord that I was being kind to someone that he loves. The kindness part is a, is a newer part of my practice. Yeah, that's, that's a newer piece.
Diana Gruver 32:57
And I think, you know, as I think about depression, you know, one thing that comes with depression that doesn't come with some of these other physical illnesses is a lot of the, the emotional pieces to it, that are just symptoms of what that illness looks like, you know, your back pain didn't bring quite the same level of despondency and guilt and self-loathing that depression brings with it just by nature of being depression.
Jonathan Puddle 33:26
For sure, of course.
Diana Gruver 33:27
And so I think for a lot of us, you know, because it because it in because all of us, all of our life, engages our spiritual life, depression engages our spiritual life, right? There are things that happen to us, at least in my experience and the experience of the people in this book when we're depressed, that that seem to come just in part because you are depressed. So a sense of God's absence seems to be a big one. The inability to pray or engage with Scripture the way that maybe you once did is another one. And I think that that is just some of the the fruit and the symptom of what depression is like, and how it, how it affects our brains and how it affects our emotions and how it affects our ability to perceive the world. And so for some of us, there's this, to varying degrees of severity, a little bit of a crisis of faith, right? I'm really hurting and God isn't here for me. Or I'm really hurting and these things that once brought me comfort are not bringing me comfort right now. And that's disorienting, and it can lead to some of that sense of crisis. You know, it adds to that, maybe I'm doing something wrong. Maybe God has left me here, you know, and that's something that I think comes with depression that we can prepare for, we can care for each other for and and can can know, "Okay, this is this is not true. This is a symptom, you know. This is not true." This is the way I'm perceiving this to be. It doesn't mean God isn't here just because I don't (I'm doing air quotes) "feel him" in the way that I normally do. And I think we as as Christian community, as brothers and sisters in Christ can position each other to respond to that better or worse. And so if we can talk about depression in that matter of fact, way, if we can approach it the way that you have, you know, just shared with your back pain, it doesn't remove that crisis of faith completely, no. But it doesn't keep another burden on top of people. And so I feel a great sense of empathy for folks who are, are not only struggling with depression, but they just have more weights heaped on top of them, because of really poorly handled conversations about mental health. And, you know, when I think about things like that, I think about Jesus's words to the Pharisees about, you know, you're taking the law and you're just adding weights to it and keeping it on people's back.
Jonathan Puddle 36:03
Yeah.
Diana Gruver 36:04
And, and so I think that's something I know I've been very convicted by and, again, I hope comes as a trickle down effect of of this book is, let's stop adding more burdens to each other that don't need to be there. You know, when you're depressed, you have enough to carry, you don't need to carry extra guilt, because people have, either their some version of their theology, you know, has added more guilt to you. That's not necessary. You don't need to bear that burden.
Jonathan Puddle 36:34
Yeah. Amen. Thank you for saying that. Or then related to that is the kind of the spiritual bypassing where, where people will, "Oh, well, you know, you just just need to read the Psalms." Or offer some kind of quick pat answer, which, which I guess we know, is actually well meaning, but it's also like this inability, inability and willingness to enter into our pain with us.
Diana Gruver 37:02
Because pain makes us uncomfortable. It does. And I think out of response for that, you know, out of response of that discomfort, we try to either come up with a fix that makes us feel more comfortable that we've provided our remedy, or we do a variety of things to keep it at bay. Because if someone else struggles like that, without clear reason, and without a clear remedy, Oh, goodness, that might come for us too.
Jonathan Puddle 37:32
Yes.
Diana Gruver 37:33
And, and so I think one of the great things that we can do in the church community, again, as an act of discipleship, I will put it in that context, is to learn how to become more comfortable with pain, not in a masochistic way. But in a, okay, I can sit in this space, I can sit in the tension of this space, where I can say God is good, and pain exists. And I can just sit here with my mouth shut, and just keep company with someone else in the midst of their pain. that I think would be the greatest gift for us to learn how to practice and embody
Jonathan Puddle 38:14
So much, yes. Wow. So much of my spiritual formation, which I'm very thankful for much of the time, is in Charismatic, very kind of, "Bring the kingdom now, Lord, by your spirit!" kind of ways. And, and I'm glad that I have that vibrancy, because in terms of faith, and in terms of prayer expectancy, I have a real expectation that God is here, that God is real, that God shows up. But that doesn't mean I haven't experienced times where God doesn't seem to show up, certainly not the way I expect. And, and culturally, it definitely seems like it's given rise (in the larger movements that I'm a part of), to what you just said. "God is real" and "pain exists" it's like, I can't put those in a sentence. I wasn't given permission to put those in a single sentence, which meant I had to live with a really deep cognitive dissonance that I was not given a solution for. And I mean, that alone I think breeds mental problems and problems when you have these underlying dissonances and rejections and weird biases that you that you know, intuitively don't resolve. But you're, but you're not given permission. You know, the only tools that I was given was to rebuke the demons and to claim the blood of Jesus over crappy feelings. OK, so I underlined this again this morning because it just spoke to me. "The emotions..." This is in the Mother Teresa section. "The emotions and comforts and warm fuzzies of faith are wonderful when they come but they are not the litmus test of God's existence, of the Gospel's hope, or the faith he planted in my soul.", I was like, "Oh amen." And then, if that wasn't already, hope-filled enough, you said, "Fruits of love, kindness, humility, and even joy can grow in the dark, we may not see them or rather feel them. But that does not mean they're not there. Depression does not halt our growth in godliness." And that was like a deep soul breath for me. It may certainly feel like our spiritual life is halted. But it's not, is it?
Diana Gruver 40:47
No. And, you know, I, I emotions are great things that, you know, emotions are gift from God. They're part of the way that he designed us to operate. And I don't think we have to live inherently skeptical of them. But they are emotions. And especially when we're depressed, those feelings that we feel... we need to learn... I've heard so many people say depression is a liar. And it is, it doesn't mean that the things that we feel in the midst of that are illegitimate. But it does mean that that a part again of the symptom of it is that we don't perceive reality correctly. And so in that, in that, in, in our spiritual life in that relationship with God, and our perception of what that is like, depression is a liar. You know, Mother Teresa felt like God had abandoned her. And she was alone. And she couldn't pray. And she, I mean, like you said, her words are shocking. No one knew about this when she was alive. They didn't know about it until I think, I think the book that revealed that to the world was published maybe 10 years ago, it was some letters to some of her spiritual advisors. She would say, you know, my, my soul is like an ice block. The place of God in my soul is blank, she said. But as I read her words, and I, I thought through how she responded to those things, I kept thinking, you know, those were her feelings in the midst of that, and they were legitimate, and they were real. And that was what she felt. But did God actually leave for? No!
Jonathan Puddle 42:36
That's it.
Diana Gruver 42:37
And certainly, did she stop growing and her faithfulness or her godliness over those last several decades of her life? No! I mean, the woman exuded joy and love in such practical and sacrificial ways. God was clearly working in her. She didn't feel it. But it was there. And you know, if Mother Teresa can feel that and see that fruit, I can feel that and I can expect to see fruit too. And she had this great quote that says, "Thank God that we've been told to follow Christ. I don't have to go ahead of him." So the path is this always sure even in the darkness, the path is sure. So when things get particularly overwhelming, I just stand still like a little child. And I just wait for the storm to subside. And so when we're in that place of turmoil, when we're in that place of darkness, the call hasn't changed. God's promised to be with us has not changed. And so there's something in that that's, you know, I don't have to get all the sense that I get in my own spirit is a sense of franticness you know, I have to fix this, I have to get this right. I have to make this feel okay. And I think her story especially just offers me a word of No, just just be still, just be quiet. God hasn't left you. He's not done with you. He's here. He just just be still a little bit. I think often of the words in Psalm 139. He talks about if I go up to the heavens, God is there. And if I make my bed in the depths, God is there. And he says, even the darkness is not dark to you. And I've started reading that psalm, that part in particular, but as a whole thinking about depression. You know, I used to read that, that's the one that's, you know, "Search me, oh, Lord and know my heart." It talks about searching as anxious thoughts. And I used to think about that in terms of almost the guilty sense, you know, like...
Jonathan Puddle 44:49
Evangelical righteousness.
Diana Gruver 44:51
Yeah, yeah, I'm doing all of this stuff wrong. Look inside of me and see all the bad stuff. And you know, and now I think about it and I think about this invitation to say, God look, look in and search me, you can see what these thoughts are like, you knew me when you were forming me. How can I possibly escape you? How could I possibly say, this darkness of my depression has become so deep, that there's no way you can enter into this with me? And so I think the thing that has really encouraged me and and I hope will continue to to seep deeper and deeper into my own being is our God is one who keeps company with us in the light and in the dark, you know. And he is intent on that, he is relentless in that. And so I can just be still.
Jonathan Puddle 45:49
Yes, that's so good. I love that you put that verse on those little candles because I have it now in my, in my bathroom where I took that bath yesterday.
Diana Gruver 45:59
Wonderful.
Jonathan Puddle 46:01
Psalm 139 and Romans 8:38-39 are probably the very foundations of my theology. Where can I go from your presence? For I am convinced that nothing can separate us. And if somebody then says, "Well, Jesus should be the bedrock of your theology", I will say his name is Emmanuel, which means God with us, which is exactly what those 2 passages of Scripture say. But they are... I've had to wrestle a lot of that with that emotional stuff, right? Understanding our emotions, because I, I was very, very distrustful of my emotions, and I despised them. And, and in my journey, right now, with my therapist, we've been going a lot around the sense that Jonathan felt too much. That Jonathan's parents who loved him didn't have the ability or the language to emotionally attune to him. And so those big emotions that I had... felt like there were too much for the world. And so they were a liability. And so I shut them down. You know, coming to see my emotions as a source of truth has been life changing for me! But that they do not contain all the truth.
Diana Gruver 47:24
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 47:24
Right. My friend, Marc Schelske, he says that emotions are like, they can't lie to you. They cannot deceive you. But they don't have the whole picture. They they're like a check engine light on your car, you have to go and figure out what the light means, right? Like, it could just mean that your gas cap's on wrong. Or it could mean like that your engine's about to explode. And the, I think the way that you delineate that with depression as a liar is really good, right? Because the emotion says, I feel super abandoned right now. And that's a true emotion. That's a true feeling.
Diana Gruver 48:00
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 48:00
I feel really abandoned! And if I'm just rejecting that emotion, and I'm not allowing myself to sit with honesty, this is the way I feel right now. Then I can't have any measure of cohesion. But as you said, "Have I been abandoned right now?" Is that the cosmic truth of this present moment? Well, the Psalmist and Paul would say, "No." In fact, I cannot be abandoned despite how deserving of abandonment and how presently abandoned I may feel. Praise God for that.
Diana Gruver 48:40
Amen. And going back to Mother Teresa, I think you know, our honesty with the way that those feelings feel. She I think really embodies a lot of the the practice of the lament psalms you know, she said all of these things, but you know, the context in which she said them most of the time was prayer. And, and so to say, I feel abandoned, but to feel the freedom to say that to God, you know, and we see the laments all over the Psalms of, you know, the, the rage, the sorrow the, you know, my "my bed is wet with all of my weeping." And to bring that to God, I think is a very holy thing. And even though it doesn't fix the problem, I think it keeps us in the right position.
Jonathan Puddle 49:35
Yes.
Diana Gruver 49:36
Keeps us in the right place. And some days that's enough.
Jonathan Puddle 49:41
Yes, that is so good. That is a really helpful... it's like it's enough, isn't it? This is so good. I'm so thankful for, for you penning these words. I wonder if you'd have any any quick advice for folks who, who are journeying with somebody else, a spouse, a loved one. And they don't seem to get it themselves, my wife is one of those persons who seems to be immune to those kinds of things or or if not immune, she can simply process rapidly. And so I know she often struggles to know exactly how to help me.
Diana Gruver 50:27
Yeah, it's hard. I, you know, I've, I've questioned that various times over the years, is it easier to go through depression yourself? Or is it easier... or well... Is it harder to go through depression yourself, or is it harder to walk through it closely with someone that you love? And I don't really, I don't know that I've come to a decision on that one yet. And so I guess that's the first thing I'd say, you know, if you feel like it's hard, it is. And that's okay. And so the first thing I would say is, you know, just like when you're walking through depression, you need to know you're not alone, when you're walking with someone who's walking through depression, you need to know you're not alone. And that's something that really struck me as I wrote this book is that I could not write these stories without writing the stories as well of the people who walked with them. And so you... we're in good company, if that is where you are today, there are other people who have and are walking that road. And the second thing I would say is, don't be afraid to get help for yourself. And, you know, just as someone who is depressed can't walk through that, and, and find a way through that on their own, you can't either and so, you know, helping your loved one have a support network. So it's not just you trying to Superman or Woman through on your own. And then also surrounding yourself with support. So some trusted friends who you can talk to, maybe a therapist to process that experienced yourself. You compromising your own physical, mental health, or even your relationship with with that loved one, or that friend is not going to do you or them any good, and so make sure that you are getting the care that you need as well. And the third thing I'd say is just be patient. You know, depression is a marathon and it is not a sprint. And sometimes recovery just comes more in fits and starts than in this very clear linear progression. And so too, to know that going into it and just have a lot of patience towards this person that's suffering, patience towards yourself, and patience for whatever that process might look like, you know. Celebrate those victories when they come, you know, if if they are taking their medication faithfully, or if they're you feeling well enough to engage in some of the things they once do, praise God, celebrate that. Feel good about that. But know that there might be days where that doesn't happen. And to approach that, with that, you know, long term view and long goal and view and and have that patience for the process, I think will set you up to have some more realistic expectations of sometimes what that recovery process looks like.
Jonathan Puddle 53:21
Very, very wise. Thank you. That's great. Diana, where can people learn more about you and grab the book?
Diana Gruver 53:31
So you can read some more of my writing and find out more about me at my own website, which is DianaGruver.com. I'm also on Twitter @DianaGruver, and occasionally on Facebook @DianaGruverWriter. And you can find links for the book on my website. It's also on Amazon, at my publisher, InterVarsity Press or anywhere else that books are sold.
Jonathan Puddle 53:54
I'll make sure all those links are in the show notes. Diana, would you pray for us today?
Diana Gruver 53:58
Oh, I'd love to. God, thank you for this space. And this conversation. Thank you, Lord, that we can come freely before you and freely before each other to talk about some of these places of hurt. And and that's not something we need to be afraid of or ashamed of. I thank you, Lord, that that you have offered us companions for the way. That this journey of life is never something that you asked us to walk alone. And that you send people in the present and people from the past to encourage us and to just help us take those next step along the way. I thank you as well, Lord, that that you are the God who keeps company with us that we know that no matter how deep our darkness may become that you will keep company with us there. I just thank you for that God, that is a gift and that is a source of hope beyond anything I know. If there are people listening today where you are struggling with depression, I ask that you would give them the strength to keep clinging to hope and turning to hope that you would bring light to their darkness, that you would bring people around them who can support them and help them to get well. And then you would help them to know there's some means that they are not alone in the dark. Just thank you, God for your faithfulness to us, your love towards us. And we thank you that you are the one who is redeeming all things. In Jesus name, amen.
Jonathan Puddle 55:46
Amen. Thank you, Diana. Friends, go click the show notes to order a copy of her beautiful, wonderful book, Companions in the Darkness: Seven Saints Who Struggled with Depression and Doubt. And also, now that you've listened to this, make sure that you head over to patreon.com so you can listen to the B-Sides. My friend Robert Vore, who you may know already, he hosts the CXMH podcast, Christian mental health podcast with Dr. Holly Oxhandler. He's a wonderful guy and a counselor and does really great work in this space. And he joined me to do a B-Side for interview with Diana. We discussed all manner of things to do with depression, suicidal ideation. Speaking of people in a way that is vulnerable, even when we include their flaws, because that's one of the interesting things that Diana does very well in her book, which we don't discuss on air but you have to read the book to see it, is that she doesn't gloss over any of the real problems with some of the people that she tells stories of. You know, Martin Luther, classic example, one of the most influential people in the last... ever in the church history for sure, but also a raging anti-Semite. Terrible views on women, all kinds of stuff that we wouldn't endorse or support today. And Diana does a really great job of putting all of those beliefs that we don't no longer agree with into the proper context, historically, but also not glossing over them and not just sort of being like, yeah, everything was great. And she does that in a really great way. Robert, and I discussed that on the B-Side. So if you want to hear that conversation, you'll need to become a patron, you can do so for as little as $3 a month. And you can find the links to do that in the show notes. In the show notes you will also find the text transcript of this entire episode. If you know somebody who would like to read this, if you have a friend, maybe you doesn't find listening to podcasts something that works for them, you can go to JonathanPuddle.com, hit the episode link to this episode, or the show notes and you'll find a full text transcript for this. Thank you to my patrons who make it possible every month. Alright, friends, that's enough from me. So glad that you're here. Thank you for listening and sharing. Find me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, tik tok @JonathanPuddle. Much love. We'll talk to you soon.